NVIDIA GeForce 8800 1

If SolidWorks were to switch over to DirectX 10, then we could all start buying lower priced cards that would have great performance. But, they are using OpenGL and we need to use cards that have drivers that play nicely with programs like SolidWorks. This might change with SolidWorks 2008 and Vista. Who knows. The GeForce might not end up being a bad investment if that happens, though. I run a GeForce 6800 GT at home with SolidWorks 2007. I will see the multiple open window slowdown if I am really pushing it, but thats not most of the time. It really depends on what you do and how valuable your time is if you are pushing your card to the max...

Pete

If you do go for the GeForce card (not recommended) you may be able to force it to act like a Quadro using the tools from

SW07-SP3

I don't beleive the soft quadro hack is possible on the newer GeForce cards. I think nVidia sewed that whole shut. I could not apply a soft quadro hack to my PCI Express 6800, but I recall that Jason, Gildahard, could with his AGP 6800. I find the performance on my 6800 to be quite good, except for when I have lots of windows open. If it were my full time business machine though, I would get the quadro FX 560. Its about $250-$270 and performs well for us here at work.

Pete

I never got the hack to work on my 6800GT AGP card. It listed it as a Quadro 4000 but realview still didn't work.

Nvidia's really got a good scam going here.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
UG NX4.01.0 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2007 SP2.2 on WinXP SP2

The scam maybe coming to an end with DX10. Everybody has been bashing Microsoft for going to DX10 in Vista, but in the end I think it will make better hardware for CAD at a lower price. Of course the graphics cards were not ready to be on board with great DX10 cards, when they stand to charge a premium for "special" CAD cards that are anywhere from 2-10X more expensive than similar hardware - all in the name of "special" secret sauce optimized drivers for open GL CAD programs.

Pete

I cut this...

TS3D HOOPS is fully compatible with the new Microsoft VISTA. Do you consider VISTA a good platform for design software?
I think some of the early reports about CAD software problems on Vista are really a result of the natural lag in technology compatibility and not an accurate view of the Vista platform [see more on this topic at WorldCAD blog]. We can really only speak to the graphics portion of that question, rather than memory usage, system resource allocation, etc. but our opinion is that the performance issues being reported are almost entirely related to the fact that the vast majority of design applications use OpenGL for graphics acceleration.
Today, the OpenGL drivers on Vista-ready graphics cards are still quite immature. While OpenGL will be well served on Vista as these issues settle out, it also appears clear that Direct3D is the future for Vista and beyond. Our early tests are indicating that using Direct3D that is 100% shader-based will provide significant performance benefits... so we will see design software migrating to driving Direct3D over time - while still wanting to support OpenGL for their customers using Windows XP.
As developers migrate to being able to drive Direct3D in a shader-based mode they will be more than happy with the graphics capabilities of Vista.

From here...


Pete

It is not possible to soft Quadro a 8800 using Riva Tuner. The Riva Tuner forum states this clearly. It might be possible to have the card identified to the system as a Quadro, but the driver install is for the Geforce. It is possible to "Quadro" a 6800GT AGP,-> Quadro 4000 FX however. We run 6 of them with no issues. The way to tell if the hack of a Geforce -> Quadro has suceeded, is to check whether the "Unified Back Buffer" switch is greyed out in the graphics card settings. If it is not greyed out, the hack is a sucess. The install of the driver must be done from the ini file of the patched driver, not from the driver exe.

I need to try it again I guess....it read Quadro 4000 but I didn't have that option.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
UG NX4.01.0 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2007 SP2.2 on WinXP SP2

It is debatable as to weather there is a good reason why the gamer cards won’t play well with SolidWorks or not. Gaming cards and CAD cards are optimized for different purposes. Gaming cards are set up for a single window, enormous amounts of texture information and can trade accuracy for speed. CAD cards are set up for multiple windows and put a premium on accuracy. More of the difference is in the drivers than in the hardware. In the end, gaming cards typically work for CAD, but with some quirks, which you may or may not be able to live with.

In my opinion, the true downside of using the unsupported cards is that they are just that, unsupported. When you have problems with crashes or most anything else, one of the first things your VAR, or the people on this forum will ask is “What card are you using and which version of the driver?” If you answer is not a certified combination, you will generally be told that it is likely a problem with the display drivers, and to switch to a certified solution.

You do not have to place much value on your time before it makes sense to bight the bullet and use a certified card, even though it costs more or the performance specs are less.


Eric

Its a scam.....the Geforce and Quadro cards are the same. Its like having a high performance engine in your car but the car's computer software limits the output because you didn't "buy" the more expensive version of car.

My Geforce 6800GT screams along just fine in Solidworks. I just can't use Realview cause suppossedly the Geforce card doesn't support the OpenGL shaders. Thats BS.......it does....its just turned off.

People hacked the older Geforce cards with drivers to fool it so nVidia made hardware changes to the newer cards to prevent it.

Not everyone can afford the expensive Quadro card....especially at home. I had a Quadro FX500 cards but try playing Battlefield 2 or Doom 3 on that......wasn't happening. So I can pay $250 for the Geforce 6800GT or shell out $1500+ for the Quadro 4000 which is the same card.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
UG NX4.01.0 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2007 SP2.2 on WinXP SP2

In another 2 years we might be looking at a better situation than the one you describe. Possibly 2 years from now, Vista will be stable, DirectX 10 will be mainstream, video cards supporting DirectX 10 will have solid drivers, and CAD companies will have possibly switched over to supporting DirectX 10. If these things happen, then I don't think we will see $1500 graphics cards to run SolidWorks efficiently for decent size assemblies. There are a lot of ifs in those forward looking statements, but they are necessary if we are to get away from the scam that is happenning today. Its the same hardware, most of the time between GeForce and Quadro. The difference is in the drivers and what features they turn on/off. The drivers can't be that expensive. They charge $1500 because they can. Hopefully 2 years from now they won't be able to do that...

Pete

A scam? I don't think so.

nVidia and ATI - as well as all the ISVs - invest million$$ to provide high-performance drivers for professional applications for a relatively small potential market. Using SoftQuadro is piracy, plain and simple and nVidia is right to protect their intellectual property. (It's the software that you're paying extra for - not the hardware.)

Quadro FX and FireGL cards with full OpenGL Shader 3.0 support (required for SW2008) start at around $200 - and will offer better performance and a richer feature set for SolidWorks than even the highest-end gaming cards.

Anyone willing to trust Microsoft to develop stable, robust drivers for professional 3d graphics applications is seriously deluded. It's just too small a market for Microsoft to invest the necessary resources. We'd get the equivalent of Software OpenGL - though maybe a bit faster.

And no, I don't sell hardware.

Sorry dude....you aren't paying for software drivers...nVidia is not throwing a hugh amount of $$$ into devloping drivers. The money from video cards comes from designing and developing the hardware. You mean to tell me that the $1300 price difference is software related? How can that be when a low end Quadro is $200...yet the high end is around $2000+.

A richer feature set?....what?....its the same card.....it doesn't offer anything more....except that they use the software driver to turn off stuff on the gaming card. My gmaing cards runs Solidworks very well....I'm just missing Realview.....which, as others report....hacking the driver to make it think its a quadro makes it run like a quadro...because its the same card.

And don't tell me its piracy....if I want to write drivers for any of "MY" computer hardware...I have the right to do so. Just like Ford can't tell me I cannot modify the engine my car. I own it.



Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
UG NX4.01.0 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2007 SP2.2 on WinXP SP2

I see things as Jason does.

Also, "Anyone willing to trust Microsoft to develop stable, robust drivers for professional 3d graphics applications is seriously deluded."

I was in no way saying that Microsoft will develop stable drivers for video cards - thats the job of the video card companies. Microsoft is providing a foundation (DirectX 10) that video card makers will write drivers in which to operate in (Make API Calls to). In the end I think it will open things up a little bit, rather than continue with the status quo as Jason describes. This is why I posted the clip from Ron Fritz at Tech Soft. From what Ron says, he feels that OpenGL will begin to decline as Vista and DirectX10 begin to increase and drivers become more stable. Time will tell.

The Quadro cards for example are generally for business computers using business related software. Yes, the market is smaller and the prices should be a little higher, but come on - up to 10X higher with equivalent hadware as the high end gaming cards. The prices are higher b/c it is a business market and businesses will pay more. Its equivalent to buying "business" internet connections at twice the pice of "home" internet connections - they are the same performance wise, but businesses get charged more because they have a need for it more and are more willing to pay higher prices. That same product priced the same for home users would not garner as much market share, because a lot of home users probably would not pay business prices for an internet connection.

Is a soft quadro hack piracy? Or is it more like aftermarket (think car parts and performance tweaks). Is there anything illegal about the softquadro hack? I would be suprised to find out it is with it being so proudly displayed and used by so many