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15 story hotel in 6 days 1
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concretemasonry
Structural
Labor costs are not that simple because very often, the workers in China live on the site in addition to the meals and housing. That is just for short term site preparation and erection costs and not not including any electrical and finishing costs. - In any event the short erection time is impressive and everyone knows about the site preparation and interior costs.
Engineering and up front preparation, including manufacturing time and details were obviously needed earlier.
With the level of construction in China, there is premium on speed, but the posted type of structural construction is quite low on the priority for Chinese needs.
The Chinese are now very dedicated to engineering and efficient construction. I spent a couple of days guiding a group(10-15) of Chinese (mainly engineers) through Las Vegas to look at existing structures and other under construction because the structures were similar to those for Chinese residences, but their area requirements were somewhat greater than a typical hotel room. For some unknown reason, they wanted to stay at the Excalibur (4 - 28 story buildings - reinforced masonry with site poured lift slabs) built on a fast track (1 -3 floors per week) schedule. They spent about a day looking at the rooms, measuring and taking the usual photos. They then just spent a day going over the detailed building structural plans, local and national codes and details (studied in advance also) including the movement joints of the two structures (90 degrees intersection) at the corner elevators.
It is a little different dealing with other countries practices, but China is a bit different. They are totally dedicated to quality, technology, speed and durability of construction. They also are so new to the "outer world" that they do not always have to comply with the bureaucracy common elsewhere, so things can happen quicker.
These outstanding projects are great example if they are studied with attention to the detail, scope and unique engineering features in detail.
The "reported" wage rates in many countries are not really realistic, since even China was problems with illegal low priced workers (unskilled) for other adjoining countries and other in the case of electronics assembly. - I wish I was an engineer and owned a Mercedes dealership in China.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
Engineering and up front preparation, including manufacturing time and details were obviously needed earlier.
With the level of construction in China, there is premium on speed, but the posted type of structural construction is quite low on the priority for Chinese needs.
The Chinese are now very dedicated to engineering and efficient construction. I spent a couple of days guiding a group(10-15) of Chinese (mainly engineers) through Las Vegas to look at existing structures and other under construction because the structures were similar to those for Chinese residences, but their area requirements were somewhat greater than a typical hotel room. For some unknown reason, they wanted to stay at the Excalibur (4 - 28 story buildings - reinforced masonry with site poured lift slabs) built on a fast track (1 -3 floors per week) schedule. They spent about a day looking at the rooms, measuring and taking the usual photos. They then just spent a day going over the detailed building structural plans, local and national codes and details (studied in advance also) including the movement joints of the two structures (90 degrees intersection) at the corner elevators.
It is a little different dealing with other countries practices, but China is a bit different. They are totally dedicated to quality, technology, speed and durability of construction. They also are so new to the "outer world" that they do not always have to comply with the bureaucracy common elsewhere, so things can happen quicker.
These outstanding projects are great example if they are studied with attention to the detail, scope and unique engineering features in detail.
The "reported" wage rates in many countries are not really realistic, since even China was problems with illegal low priced workers (unskilled) for other adjoining countries and other in the case of electronics assembly. - I wish I was an engineer and owned a Mercedes dealership in China.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
I wonder if their interest in the Excalibur is because it is the tallest reinforced CMU building in the world (at least I believe it still is..)? Maybe looking for some additional engineering bragging rights on the world stage. And the probably realize it is an efficient method of constructing those charming box-like apartment buildings in dozens...
Dick, I wonder if your impression of Chinese construction and engineering is of their current state of the art? Because after that last earthquake that hit China, it was found out how poorly designed/constructed many of the buildings were, especially government buildings like schools... Maybe these buildings were older and in the countryside, compared to new construction in the big cities.
At some point though, wouldn't you think that speed and efficiency may to lead to a decrease in quality? Experience would say so...
Dick, I wonder if your impression of Chinese construction and engineering is of their current state of the art? Because after that last earthquake that hit China, it was found out how poorly designed/constructed many of the buildings were, especially government buildings like schools... Maybe these buildings were older and in the countryside, compared to new construction in the big cities.
At some point though, wouldn't you think that speed and efficiency may to lead to a decrease in quality? Experience would say so...
JoshPlumSE
Structural
A2mfk -
I think there is a big difference between the types of construction done in the cities and the country. In the cities, my impression is that the Chinese are building "signature" structures to advertise China's engineering and construction prowess to the world stage (i.e. the Olympics).
What happens in the Chinese countryside may be very, very different. Even in well developed countries, there can be a big difference in construction quality based on which building department is in charge of plan check..... What's the difference like in China?
I think there is a big difference between the types of construction done in the cities and the country. In the cities, my impression is that the Chinese are building "signature" structures to advertise China's engineering and construction prowess to the world stage (i.e. the Olympics).
What happens in the Chinese countryside may be very, very different. Even in well developed countries, there can be a big difference in construction quality based on which building department is in charge of plan check..... What's the difference like in China?
concretemasonry
Structural
JoshPlum - Have your ever been to China and looked at construction and met with designers?
First, there is not much "countryside". Most construction is in cities. The amount of arable soil is low and people and construction is along the rivers in large cities and suburbs are rare.
Second, most construction is for residential in cities for the people and also some some examples or monuments, which are minimal in the big picture.
The photo shown was probably an example because the construction method and materials are not typical and were an experiment and showplace project.
Even Habitat for Humanity can build a house in 24 hours, but it takes many, many years to grow the trees, which is much less the fabrication of new "modern" panels. - China does not use wood for construction because of durability, ecology and acceptability.
Many countries have tremendous ability to build massive projects and they generally use U.S. based standards and design codes. - I have given numerous seminars to Chinese engineers and they readily accept them because they are well founded and professional.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
First, there is not much "countryside". Most construction is in cities. The amount of arable soil is low and people and construction is along the rivers in large cities and suburbs are rare.
Second, most construction is for residential in cities for the people and also some some examples or monuments, which are minimal in the big picture.
The photo shown was probably an example because the construction method and materials are not typical and were an experiment and showplace project.
Even Habitat for Humanity can build a house in 24 hours, but it takes many, many years to grow the trees, which is much less the fabrication of new "modern" panels. - China does not use wood for construction because of durability, ecology and acceptability.
Many countries have tremendous ability to build massive projects and they generally use U.S. based standards and design codes. - I have given numerous seminars to Chinese engineers and they readily accept them because they are well founded and professional.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
Dick, I would never argue with your personal experience or impressions from China, especially since I have never been there. My overall impression from articles and documentaries with building and infrastructure construction is that what they are doing now in the bigger cities may rival anywhere in the world on a project-by-project basis.
But with such a massive population, rapid urbanization, and a transforming economy, all under the leadership of a communist government, there must be some shortfalls and shortcuts... I am thinking these may come in the "everyday" common buildings found outside the biggest, most recognizable, most traveled areas and Josh stated. And with 45+ cities over two million, there are probably a lot of areas where construction of multi-story concrete and masonry buildings are not up to par, particularly when it comes to seismic loading resistance.
Pre-fabricated, modular construction that takes place off-site in a factory environment under strict quality control and then is erected on-site, like the video shows, may be one of the answers to China's huge shortfall of safe buildings. Especially if it is an engineered steel frame system with all-field bolting, which that thing looked like it went up like an erector set (who needs stinkin directions!).. Not to mention much less waste than on-site construction.
Earthquake damage pics:
But with such a massive population, rapid urbanization, and a transforming economy, all under the leadership of a communist government, there must be some shortfalls and shortcuts... I am thinking these may come in the "everyday" common buildings found outside the biggest, most recognizable, most traveled areas and Josh stated. And with 45+ cities over two million, there are probably a lot of areas where construction of multi-story concrete and masonry buildings are not up to par, particularly when it comes to seismic loading resistance.
Pre-fabricated, modular construction that takes place off-site in a factory environment under strict quality control and then is erected on-site, like the video shows, may be one of the answers to China's huge shortfall of safe buildings. Especially if it is an engineered steel frame system with all-field bolting, which that thing looked like it went up like an erector set (who needs stinkin directions!).. Not to mention much less waste than on-site construction.
Earthquake damage pics:
I wonder what was the cost of engineering the building to earthquake specs and other requirements which every building in the USA is subject to. This is very expensive in the USA. Do they just "copy" a building and save all that engineering expense(and hope they copy it correctly)?
I worked with a Chinese engineering PhD in the power plant construction business. I asked him how they got the American patents?. He replied, "We don't. we just build it".
I worked with a Chinese engineering PhD in the power plant construction business. I asked him how they got the American patents?. He replied, "We don't. we just build it".
JoshPlumSE
Structural
Dick -
I have never been to China. My engineering experience in China is virtually nil..... I was not trying to imply otherwise. Quite the opposite, I was trying to relate A2mfk's comments back to work here in the US. I have certainly seen the quality of work very from region to region here in the US. I've got to imagine that it would be similar in China.
Since you seem to have so much experience in China perhaps you can explain these recent failures to us. Were they the result of old construction, shoddy engineering, poor maintenance, poor construction? Those are reasonable questions.... though a bit off topic from the original thread.
I have never been to China. My engineering experience in China is virtually nil..... I was not trying to imply otherwise. Quite the opposite, I was trying to relate A2mfk's comments back to work here in the US. I have certainly seen the quality of work very from region to region here in the US. I've got to imagine that it would be similar in China.
Since you seem to have so much experience in China perhaps you can explain these recent failures to us. Were they the result of old construction, shoddy engineering, poor maintenance, poor construction? Those are reasonable questions.... though a bit off topic from the original thread.
concretemasonry
Structural
The project (mid-rise) originally posted was probably a part of their effort to determine the advantages of different building systems. That project appeared to be somewhat different than a tradition building that is site built and there are usually many safety and work items (complete enclosure and safety items) and the workers have living space on the tight sites that are on a 24x7 basis. I am sure it will yield some information on the applicability of that system even though other systems are generally already accepted in China for buildings in that height and use. This building is really insignificant in China, where there are many acres of taller buildings in a city that may only be 4,000,000 people.
China is a very unique in its position of engineering, construction and modernization because of being isolated for many decades. They are playing "catch-up" in development of needed structures. They have resources, money and the needs to improve life there for the residents. Thanks to the U.S. codes and standards, the engineers have had access to these tools and are now allowed to use them. Aside from the academic people, the engineers work for a design firm, which is usually a partner with a construction company, both of which have some government interest. It is not a communist state.
The overwhelming demand for construction has been absorbed by the 1.3 billion people in the country. Because it is so large and has so many different regions with different conditions, the global standards for seismic and tsunami loading is being based on those global standards.
Efficiency of labor is not a critical item because of the reasonable wages and the moral obligation to provide work and income for the population.
There have been some widely publicized failures, such as the apparently sound (before collapse) building that is shown on its side, while all surrounding buildings were sound and exhibited no problems. It may have been a soil/drainage problem or due to other excavating/construction in the area. If it follows other problems that affect Chinese citizens, there may be a couple of people executed, just like the infant formula that was an internal matter.
China is not perfect by any means, but is striving to be equal or better than other countries. In addition to the proven ability to handle the vast volume, the good engineering is still to be exercised to properly use the resources.
It is an interesting situation to watch from a development and engineering standpoint. The Three Rivers project dwarfs any other project in the world, so they do have the logistics and scheduling. When you come back to a city after 18 months and stay at the same hotel and get lost 2 blocks away, things are rapidly changing.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
China is a very unique in its position of engineering, construction and modernization because of being isolated for many decades. They are playing "catch-up" in development of needed structures. They have resources, money and the needs to improve life there for the residents. Thanks to the U.S. codes and standards, the engineers have had access to these tools and are now allowed to use them. Aside from the academic people, the engineers work for a design firm, which is usually a partner with a construction company, both of which have some government interest. It is not a communist state.
The overwhelming demand for construction has been absorbed by the 1.3 billion people in the country. Because it is so large and has so many different regions with different conditions, the global standards for seismic and tsunami loading is being based on those global standards.
Efficiency of labor is not a critical item because of the reasonable wages and the moral obligation to provide work and income for the population.
There have been some widely publicized failures, such as the apparently sound (before collapse) building that is shown on its side, while all surrounding buildings were sound and exhibited no problems. It may have been a soil/drainage problem or due to other excavating/construction in the area. If it follows other problems that affect Chinese citizens, there may be a couple of people executed, just like the infant formula that was an internal matter.
China is not perfect by any means, but is striving to be equal or better than other countries. In addition to the proven ability to handle the vast volume, the good engineering is still to be exercised to properly use the resources.
It is an interesting situation to watch from a development and engineering standpoint. The Three Rivers project dwarfs any other project in the world, so they do have the logistics and scheduling. When you come back to a city after 18 months and stay at the same hotel and get lost 2 blocks away, things are rapidly changing.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
msquared48
Structural
Regarding the speed of construction, the news reports had this all wrong.
This is not a Hotel.
Due to the current 2:1 ratio of available men to women in China - a documented fact that is leading to an increase in sex-oriented crimes - the government financed a new concept in China - a Brothel - to combat the crime wave.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
This is not a Hotel.
Due to the current 2:1 ratio of available men to women in China - a documented fact that is leading to an increase in sex-oriented crimes - the government financed a new concept in China - a Brothel - to combat the crime wave.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
According to the experts at Wikipedia, Peoples Republic of China is indeed a communist state:
"However, what wasn't counted was the carbon footprint of making all the prefab and transporting it to the site."
This statement does not compute. Site-build has to have a higher carbon footprint, since you must truck everything in anyway, and there's waste and excess that must be trucked back out. Moreover, pouring concrete on-site cannot be as efficient as pouring off-site in a well-controlled and scheduled manner and unconstrained by the limitations of the building site. Trucks and cement mixers idling in queue waiting to get onto the building site also adds to the carbon footprint. How is prefab worse than that?
TTFN
FAQ731-376
This statement does not compute. Site-build has to have a higher carbon footprint, since you must truck everything in anyway, and there's waste and excess that must be trucked back out. Moreover, pouring concrete on-site cannot be as efficient as pouring off-site in a well-controlled and scheduled manner and unconstrained by the limitations of the building site. Trucks and cement mixers idling in queue waiting to get onto the building site also adds to the carbon footprint. How is prefab worse than that?
TTFN
FAQ731-376
concretemasonry
Structural
All of the raw materials (cement aggregate, insulation) used for the panels must be delivered to the plant and they must be made somewhere, which also can use considerable production energy. - It is all part of the big picture. Also, the energy cost for the panels much be recognized to get to a baseline comparison. Every material used has a long energy/carbon trail, which can get quite detailed.
I also assume the steel cost includes the mining and shipping of ores, smelting costs, manufacturing energy, and fabrication energy.
The concrete generally has a lower carbon footprint because the main materials (aggregates) are usually local and the cement is local/regional, but may just be across the street. The average China cement plants are slightly lower in energy efficiency than the U.S., but the new plants are designed to use waste materials for energy. The energy cost for cement can be high because of the firing in a kilns. Newer cement plants can save 40% energy by using old tires that have always been a disposal problem. China, with the number of cars they sell annually will be able to provide significant energy savings for plants designed to use alternate energy sources.
Since 1195, China has been on a aggressive program to determine which materials can be "classified" as ecologically sound. They have already ruled wood out because the cost of importing, ecological impact on the land. They immediately realized it was not recyclable and was not suitable for Chinese construction in general. Unfortunately, the volume of materials required in China makes blanket changes slow.
The whole "carbon footprint" can vary by location, land use and construction requirements. - It is always fun to discuss, but it is a very deep hole with no bottom.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
I also assume the steel cost includes the mining and shipping of ores, smelting costs, manufacturing energy, and fabrication energy.
The concrete generally has a lower carbon footprint because the main materials (aggregates) are usually local and the cement is local/regional, but may just be across the street. The average China cement plants are slightly lower in energy efficiency than the U.S., but the new plants are designed to use waste materials for energy. The energy cost for cement can be high because of the firing in a kilns. Newer cement plants can save 40% energy by using old tires that have always been a disposal problem. China, with the number of cars they sell annually will be able to provide significant energy savings for plants designed to use alternate energy sources.
Since 1195, China has been on a aggressive program to determine which materials can be "classified" as ecologically sound. They have already ruled wood out because the cost of importing, ecological impact on the land. They immediately realized it was not recyclable and was not suitable for Chinese construction in general. Unfortunately, the volume of materials required in China makes blanket changes slow.
The whole "carbon footprint" can vary by location, land use and construction requirements. - It is always fun to discuss, but it is a very deep hole with no bottom.
Dick
Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
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