3D printers - who's using them?

[dgowans]

I saw a recent post (toycept) that made mention of using a 3D printer. This made me wonder what flavor of 3D printer people have? My company is looking into them for our prototyping needs. Initially we were looking at the Z Corp. printers, but I just did some more investigation and am very interested in the Stratasys machines.

Any feedback you could offer would be much appreciated. I know what the end product ends up like - what I'm looking for here are the 'gotchas' to be aware of. You know, the things the sales guys omit during their pitch.......

 

[ctopher]

I have not used either, but have watched their demos a year ago and I liked the Z-Corp over the Stratasys because of the capability to mix colors. The Stratasys people showed me they can do all one color. I don't know if that has changed since.
The Z-Corp machine was also very stable. We were moving it from outside to inside. It bumped and hit with no damage externally or internally. It can also print with various types of materials. I think Stratasys is limited.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

 

[dgowans]

I've not seen the Z Corp demo, but I have seen samples. Pretty impressive - I was astounded by the elastomeric material.

I'm intrigued by the Stratasys because it uses ABS rather than whatever the Z Corp composite material is. Stratasys machines are cheaper as well, at least on the surface. I need to get my hands on a Stratasys part to see how it functions in the real world as opposed to the marketing world.

Color capability would be cool, but not a must have.

 

[ctopher]

The parts I have seen come out of Stratasys reminded me of the plastic models we glue together.
The parts come out very clean and fine detail, but all one color.
I have seen the Z-Corp machine get modified and make parts from a aluminum based material (not suggested, voids warranty). It can print real molds for production also.
I heard over a year ago they were working on a metal based materail. Not sure where they they are on that.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

 

[Theophilus]

In all such rapid prototyping methods, be careful of what sort of build material constraints you'll have--variety of material types or not?

If you end up with parts filled with all sorts of supporting material, is it easy to remove? What if you create a Coke bottle? Can you get the support material to dissolve with water (or such) or do you have to pick it out mechanically (somehow)?

Also, check out how much the material costs per volume of building and how much waste is generated.

I don't have my own system because I've got vendors who can supply all the varieties mentioned above without me having to sink in so many thousands of dollars to get it. Typcally SLS nylon is my favorite build material for testing durability, etc. If for appearance, I usually do an SLA material that resembles polypropylene (relatively tough and somewhat flexible compared to other SLA resins). It sands well and has nice resolution.



Jeff Mowry

http://www.industrialdesignhaus.com

Reason trumps all. And awe trumps reason.

 

[GITRDone]

I like the quickness of our Stratasys sys. The only hangup that I have found is that the resolution level is not that great, 0.010. If you can live with that then Stratasys might be for you. We are looking for another 3D printer at this time too, and trying to find a better resolution modeler is kind of hit and miss for us to all agree upon. For reliability I have not had any real problems with our Stratasys. The only thing that I have had to replace was the x axis motor,(after 3 years of hard use). We use it all the time. The only time that I shut it off is when the power goes out. To change the color's is not that bad, but yes you can only use one color at a time per project. They do have many different colors that you can use. Just be carefull that you don't make it into a PEZ dispencer.

 

[rfus]

Stratasys is making PolyJet printers that can lay down 16 micron layers.

FDM, SLA, SLS, PolyJet, or Z-Corp.....Depends on what you want to do.

 

[toycept]

I've owned an FDM Dimension machine by Stratasys for a couple of years. It's a great machine, clean to run, easy to use and it's convenient having it next to my desk using it in conjunction with SW. Each rapid prototyping technology has its strong points and negatives, depending on what you plan on doing with the parts.

I find the one major drawbacks on my machine (Dimension) is that the resolution is not great, especially on smaller parts with some detail. I chose this machine because it uses ABS material and the parts are relatively strong. Since I build a lot of mechanisms, the parts this machine makes are perfect for what I do. However, I recently needed some rp parts of a small tire I created (1.125 in diameter) and I knew my machine would not reproduce the detail, so I had them created using an Objet machine. They came out great, holding the tiniest detail. I find SLA's surface quality pretty clean, however the parts tend to be somewhat brittle. Z-Corp has nice colors but the parts are basically made of compressed powder, and they tend to be brittle. So once your parts are done, you most likely will need to make a rubber mold and make castings to do anything with the parts.

If you have any specific questions about the dimension, I'd be happy to share my experience with the machine.

John

 

[mmurphy50]

rfus - Stratasys does not make that machine. They are the reseller in the US and that partnership is going to end by the end of the year.

That polyjet machine is made by Objet. We have one and a Z-corp. Like GITRDone says about his Stratasys, the only time they are not running is when the power goes out.

We like the Z-Corp for the speed and colors. The Objet is a longer biuld time for the same model but the resolution is worth it for our needs. We also like the Objet because it has a flexable material.

 

[dgowans]

For those looking for 3D printers:

http://www.designnews.com/article/CA6282013.html?nid=3073&rid=1787405371

 

[bvanhiel]

We've spent 100's of thousands of dollars last year in prototypes, and I wouldn't even consider owning a machine.

Why?

Well, for the most part owning your own machine is not cost effective vs. sending the parts out to a job shop. 30-50k for a machine can buy a lot of prototypes. The only real advantages are short turnaround times for small parts, and no need to issue a PO to get a job run.

Even if you can show you'd save money, once you have a machine in house you are subject to all it's limitations... materials, color capability, reliability, and most importantly, availability. When your sending parts out you don't have any of those restrictions.

-b

 

[ctopher]

True. But if your company makes a lot of prototypes from metal by milling ... AND your customers are military/aerospace, a lot of your parts can't be sent out. For security and some savings, it would be cost effective in this case.
dgowans,
It depends on your company and products.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

 

[bvanhiel]

ctopher,

There's always exceptions, and secrecy is one of them, but we have a couple of customers with underutilized machines collecting dust. I'd hate to see others make the same mistake.

-b

 

[ctopher]

Yes.
dgowans, There are a lot of companies on the web to choose from that have this service. Do a Google search and ask for some quotes. Compare with the cost of purchasing a machine and materials.
I did it a few years ago and the cost broke even (not counting employee's salaries working the machine).

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)

 

[mmurphy50]

I would strongly recommend searching the web and getting quotes. When purchasing a machine the cost is not just the initial purchase but salary of an operator (if needed), consumables, maintenance, power, software and computer and there is probably something I am forgetting. These all need to be considered before purchasing.

If you're doing gov't work that requires secrecy, or it is something that will only be used once or twice a week, it would be more cost effective to have them done outside.

You can try

http://www.quickparts.com

or

http://www.xpress3d.com

for online quotes. Before we bought our machines I used xpress3d with good results.

 

[jrmartin]

We purchased a Stratasys about 8 months ago. We had demonstrations of both the Stratsys and Z-Corp, and our preference was the Z-Corp because of the speed. However management made the decision to purchase the Stratsys because of the mess the powder makes.

So as it stands, we've used the Stratsys on 5 parts in 8 months because;
- it takes for days to print models
- the post processing (removal of support material) is done in a bath (stratsys option) ... which opened the eyebrows of our safety rep. So she shut down the machine for 4 months.

My preference is still the Z-Corp, even with the powder mess and weakness/brittleness of the models because we use our models to get a warm-fuzzy ... not in production. With this machine, I could tweak a design in a customer review and have it in their hands by the end of the meeting.

Just my .02
Jeff Martin

 

[dgowans]

Jeff,

Can you elaborate on the time it takes to print a model using the Stratasys?

So as it stands, we've used the Stratsys on 5 parts in 8 months because;
- it takes for days to print models

Do I take that to mean it takes days to print a model, or it takes 4 days to print a model? What size parts?

That's a significant bit of information that I'd like to have going forward, and I'd prefer end-user feedback over sales force information.

 

[jrmartin]

The Stratsys utilization has been extremely sparse, hence the comment 5 parts in 8 months. Sorry but previous post was a bit of a rant because I'm not happy with this machine and my recommendation for the Z-Corp was shot down. So here's some factual information you can use to justify your decision.

I find the speed of the Stratsys to be approximately 1 cu.in per hour (of final model material). Our average part is typically 10-12 cu.in., anything smaller and it becomes useless for our application. Depending upon complexity, and the amount of support material required, I've seen 17 hours to print 10 cu.in. Hence my comment, days to print because parts need to run overnight and the post processing can take a couple of hours (3 max) in it's bath solution.

In my opinion, this is slow based upon our evaluation of the Z-Corp. The machine we tried was 1 in. per hour regardless of complexity or footprint size. The machine we used was 12"x12", hence it's speed was 144 cu.in./hr. The Z-Corp does require some post processing to render the 3D prints useful. Cleaning the fragile parts can be difficult and require a surgeons touch for thin components. As well you will require a ventilated area to apply the CA glue which bonds/cures the parts. This is not suitable for an office environment. I personally printed 40+ parts in 1.5 hours, and had them all cleaned and CA'd in one 8 hour day. There's no was I'd do this with the Stratsys.


Just another .02 ... thats .04 ... OMG
Jeff Martin

 

[ctopher]

dgowans,
Ask for a demo from Z-Corp. They can bring a unit to your company for demo.

Chris
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-27-06)