3rd Party Engineering Services without a PE Stamp? 5

[RVAmeche]

My understanding is that Plants can generally design/install things per their own designs on their own property without a PE stamp outside of some items that could impact the surrounding general public. In my role as a consulting engineer working with those facilities, our construction packages are always stamped because we're a 3rd party selling engineering services to the Plant.

On a new project I'm reviewing a design/install by a different 3rd party engineering group who created a construction package for a client without any PE stamps. It's not a complete turnkey package from the equipment vendor or something like that, it's a different 3rd party engineering firm.

Is this legal? Or is there some grey area where 3rd party engineers don't actually have to stamp construction packages for clients?

 

[phamENG]

Assuming the work qualifies as the practice of engineering, if the 3rd party is offering engineering services to 'the public' (i.e., a separate business entity that is NOT a licensed engineer/engineering firm that has responsible charge), then they themselves should (generally) be licensed.

Is this here in Virginia? There's a pretty good list of things that don't require a PE stamp, including some work in factory settings and MEP design work. 54.1-401 54.1-402 54.1-402.1

If the work doesn't fall into any of the listed exceptions, then I would agree they are probably not practicing in accordance with DPOR regs.

 

[RVAmeche]

Thanks PhamENG!

So under 54.1-402, Paragraph 7, it seems to say any piping system using catalog components with pressures < 125 psig and temps < 300F don't need PE stamps (ignoring the other minutia)?

The project I'm looking at is a cooling tower install using normal catalog type towers, pumps, etc and the pressure is less than 125 psig. So based on that exemption, any of these types of systems could be done without a PE? That seems like a surprisingly broad exemption, but I guess it makes sense based off the relatively low risks due to low pressure/temps.

 

[CWB1]

Yes. Stateside most engineering including SE/CE falls under the industrial exemption as the customer is another business, not the public (private citizens). The need to hire a PE is typically driven by the local municipality requiring submission of stamped prints for approval, not licensing law. Industrial sites are generally exempt from this bc requiring detailed documentation would waste a ton of paper/time for ever-changing, complex facilities in addition to the fact that many have regular inspections by federal and state agencies.

PEs are fairly rare in industry as they're not well respected due to lack of training and experience.

 

[RVAmeche]

CWB that's not been my experience at all as a consultant. We stamp every package for industrial clients. To be clear, I'm talking about installing tanks, pumps, general equipment, etc. Not helping Boeing design a wing or something.

My understanding is that the plant owners can do basically whatever they want on their site, but 3rd parties hired to provide engineering services would need to stamp their deliverables? All of our competitors operate the same way to my knowledge.

In the VA code 54.1-401 exemptions seems to confirm this below. I read this as the corporation that owns the property can do its own engineering on its site.

6. Practice of architecture or professional engineering by an individual, firm or corporation on property owned or leased by such individual, firm or corporation, unless the public health or safety is involved.

 

[gte447f]

CWB1, as relates to engineering licensing laws, the industrial exemption does not broadly cover business to business service transactions, and the public is not defined as or limited to private citizens. As a most basic of examples to illustrate these points, for structural engineers the most common engineer-client relationship in the building construction industry is probably a structural engineer business working for an architect business, and this business to business transaction is definitely not covered by an industrial exemption and does definitely require the SE to stamp their deliverables.

 

[phamENG]

RVA - correct. Some states have very wide industrial exemptions that can be interpreted to allow just about anyone to practice engineering on private, corporate owned property. Virginia has a very narrow industrial exemption. If you're not an employee of the owner, you're not covered by the industrial exemption in Virginia and you must have a PE to practice engineering, unless the specific work falls under one of the other, smaller exemptions. Virginia regulations also require Professional Engineers to stamp the work they complete.

Regarding offering corporations services not being "the public" - can you provide a legal reference/case law showing that? You're the only person I've ever encountered that argues that, it's contrary to my experience, and seems in conflict with my understanding of the intersection of corporate personhood and regulatory authorities.

In my time working in a plant, I was the only PE - all the other engineers were not licensed (civil, environmental, mechanical, etc.). That was fine. They fell under the exemption. But every engineering consultant that crossed our threshold was licensed or supervised by a licensed PE. Why? Because they offer engineering services. To offer engineering services, the Secretary of State requires a corporate license from the Board before they'll grant a Certificate of Authorization. Before the Board will grant that license, they have to show that a PE is employed by the company and managing, and in responsible charge of, the engineering work being done there.

 

[RVAmeche]

Thanks Pham, since all the projects I've sealed are in VA I didn't realize it was more stringent than most in terms of the industrial exemption.

I have asked DPOR for clarification on some items related to that Paragraph 7 exemption text and I'll post their response here for future use.

 

[GC_Hopi]

I would also add that the owner can be more strict than the code and require a seal even if the code does not require one. The code is a minimum.

 

[CWB1]

To be clear, I'm talking about installing tanks, pumps, general equipment, etc.

As am I. Beyond those doing their own internal (usually small) projects, there's three types of companies doing this work for-hire.
1. Manufacturers designing and building custom machines/lines/facilities around their products.
2. Integrators buying/customizing others' products and assembling them into a custom machine/line/facility.
3. Consultants designing custom machines/lines/facilities but not building them.

The first two perform the overwhelming majority of industrial engineering projects. The first usually has a few PEs scattered throughout their organization but rarely on the applications engineering teams doing this work. The second often have no degreed engineers, only tradesmen promoted to design. The third are split roughly in half between firms run by PEs and those with none.

Local munis typically want a site plan so its not uncommon to see building structures and geotech prints stamped, but equipment never is (and usually cant be) bc prints are standardized on the customer's title block/standard for quality and regulatory reasons.

 

[RVAmeche]

Yeah I'm not sure if it's just because of how VA is setup and our clients are used to it, but everything we do is PE stamped.

Tank replacement, new pump install, new heat exchanger. If we're doing an IFC drawing it's getting PE stamped.

 

[CWB1]

Stateside our legal framework is a combination of legislative statute, regulators' rules/regs, and court rulings, each occurring at the local, state, and federal levels. Related to engineering, the overwhelming majority of this comes from state and federal regulatory agencies that mandate everything from design requirements to documentation, testing, reviews, etc. No disrespect intended but pointing toward (misleading if not outdated) statute as governing is akin to sovereign citizens quoting the Constitution. Its complex, hence the reason most firms employ specialized corporate attorneys and regulatory consultants, not the local general attorney.

Black’s Law Dictionary defines public as 1. The people of a nation or community 2. A place open or visible to the public. Typically when the rights and responsibilities of a business are discussed its bc they are an “entity,” an organization that has a legal identity apart from its members or owners.

And no, providing a design to an architect does not require a license nor registering as an engineering firm. Suppliers, tradesmen, and customers do so daily for review and sealing.

 

[phamENG]

And no, providing a design to an architect does not require a license nor registering as an engineering firm. Suppliers, tradesmen, and customers do so daily for review and sealing.

Any architect in Virginia that seals anything so submitted would be in violation of Virginia Regulations which disallow the sealing of any document not produced by you or an employee of the same firm under your direct supervision or a contractor under contract to your firm similarly under your direct supervision. And if it's engineering that goes beyond what is considered 'incidental' to the practice of architecture, an architect couldn't seal it anyway without practicing engineering without a license. So I'm still not clear on how you can provide engineering consultation services to an architect without a license.

 

[RVAmeche]

Again, maybe VA and some surrounding states are different, but what I'm talking about is not unusual. My firm and all of our competitors PE stamp packages for industrial clients, factories, power plants, etc. By your logic and definition of public CWB only Utilities would need PE stamps and ironically most of the utilities are exempt. So...we'll just continue to do things differently.

 

[CWB1]

Any architect in Virginia that seals anything so submitted would be in violation of Virginia Regulations which disallow the sealing of any document not produced by you or an employee of the same firm under your direct supervision or a contractor under contract to your firm similarly under your direct supervision.

By that logic neither customers nor suppliers can provide feedback, nor can third-party design certifications happen legally. In reality, architects receive CAD and prints from builders and customers daily for review/tweak/stamp. Engineers receive custom truss and other designs daily from manufacturers to likewise review/tweak/stamp. Engineers receive designs from other engineers for review/stamp. Everybody receives red-pen markups from both upstream and downstream. Engineering is a team sport.

My firm and all of our competitors PE stamp packages...

Honestly, it doesnt sound like you know/understand your competitors. IE consultants core business typically isnt design, its rapid-troubleshooting, maintenance/quality/efficiency audits, ongoing regulatory compliance, and other work that equipment manufacturers can’t/won't do from across the country/world. When companies need a new machining line, pumping station, or powerplant they arent calling a consulting firm with limited access to manufacturers' CAD models and limited experience selecting, installing, setup/programming, operating, and most importantly optimizing complex equipment; they call the CNC, pump, or generator manufacturer. When they need something highly specialized like a new paint, wash, or chemical line they call the integrator that builds that equipment. Industrial design typically isn’t a local activity, it’s international.

Engineers at privately owned utilities are covered under the industrial exemption, at publicly-owned utilities they're covered under the exemption for govt employees.

 

[JAE]

I think we are seeing a collision between:

engineering businesses that provide consulting to the public - usually dealing with building construction. (phamENG and myself)
AND
engineers who work in industry designing and providing widgets or circuits or whatever. (CWB1)

phamENG is correct in that an engineer offering engineering design services (not widgets) to an outside entity (not his own company) must have a license and must seal their work. I've been licensed in over 25 states in the US and this is most certainly true. We're talking structural, mechanical(HVAC), electrical, civil, and geotechnical engineers providing building design services. This would include design of mezzanines and platforms within a building. We are not talking about something you order out of a Granger catalog or a line of equipment putting milk in jugs.

But I think CWB1 is correct in their world of industry where all sorts of companies provide all sorts of design services related to the elements and machinery used by and within industrial companies.

 

[RVAmeche]

Yeah, I tried to clarify that by mentioning I'm talking tanks/pumps/etc and not widgets/OEM design type things but whatever.

I've seen our competitors packages, I know they stamp them. Again, this may largely be due to VA's restrictive industrial PE exemption.

 

[AZPete]

Providing engineering services in the form of widget design to an OEM, unless it is explicitly exempted, does in some states require licensure.

 

[dauwerda]

Most industrial exemption laws that I have read (on a per state basis) specify that they only apply to employees of the exempt industry/company. That is to say, a consultant engineer would not qualify for the exemption. Furthermore, most states require that if you have a PE license you are required to seal your work, regardless if any other party (building department, client, etc.) requires it or not.

Having worked in the industrial sector, I have seen lots of submittals made by consulting firms not sealing their drawings, I have also seen lots that do seal their drawings. I am not aware of anyone (firm or individual) being disciplined for not applying seals, but I also haven't seen it challenged either.