A fair days Pay 3

[etch]

I have a serious point to make about Engineers. Now over here in Britain, engineers are not regarded highly in terms of monetary value. Speaking from my profession as a Metallurgical Engineer, payment is very low compared to other professions.

A typical engineer (non- sepcilised or non-semiconductor) In scotland might get £18-£20K ( ~$25K - $30K) This is a guy who has went to college/University and working in a factory environemt. Now a Train driver on the other hand,is getting, wait for it, £28K ($42K). Now to me it seems that the logic is screwed up. Engineers who design trains, maintain Trains and alter and tracks, are paid less that the person sitting in the cab pushing the buttons.

This is why there is a skill shortage in good qualified engineers, as no-one wants to train to do a job that pays so little.

Again this rasies questions over safety, In a radio, a comical interview with gentleman who complained after a recent train disrailment (due to bolts coming loose) Rail track sent him a letter asking him to pinpoint defective areas on his next journey. This was to try and identify what parts of the track where defective as he was riding a 100mph train.

It seems t me that being an engineer in Britain, is seen as a guy with a Shifting spanner and a 10lbs hammer. Now reading various forums here, it seems that the view of engineers over there is far different. I would like your comments on how your industry is regarded, and do you feel that you are paid fairly for what you do.

 

[redtrumpet]

http://www.apegga.com/publications/salary_survey.html

Check the above for salaries in the province of Alberta, the engineering hotbed of Canada.

In my experience, engineers in Canada are fairly compensated given the education requirements. It is not unreasonable to expect to make $60k-$80k as a design engineer (no management/line supervision duties) within 5 to 10 years of graduating with a four-year bachelor's degree. Compare this with, say, teachers or nurses who also have four-year degrees, stressful jobs, and whose jobs impact the public substantially, but who also don't make as much.

However, considering the tort and contract liability that some engineers assume and the unpaid work many engineers do to keep their skills and knowledge current,it could be argued that the compensation is inadequate.

 

[etch]

Darn, that is not a bad wage. Im afraid it is my view that over in Britain, that industrial engineers are regarded as some guy in greasy overalls, and hits sthings with hammers.

I was at a conferance recently and they spoke of how attractive the industry is to teenagers,due to its high interdependancy with computers. What they didnt think about is how lowly paid they are. A typical teenager will earn £3-4 an hour.

There is definately going to be a skills shortage of engineers and technical based industrial people, in the near future. It seems all this country does now, is open supermarkets and make jobs for call centres.

 

[Hush]

etch,

Take note redtrumpet's example is in Canadian dollars. That 60K to 80K converts to 38K to 50K USD. Even with a hefty tax burden and higher cost of living than the US its not a bad wage but its not exactly the gravy train.

 

[PSE]

Etch,

If the wages you are quoting are starting salaries then it appears that your salaries are some 10 years behind the US. Those look like the salary ranges that my peers and I were looking at in the mid to late 1980's. If those salaries are for experienced engineers then they are sadly compensated. A greasy hammer wielding industrial engineer here with 10 years of experience or so can pull down over 60K USD per year. You are correct that if such a trend continues, then there will be a lack of engineering talent in Britain. Regardless of how much you may love your occupation, you still have to make a living. You might look at some of the US publications of salary surveys for additional information as well. The link below has a salary calculator based upon geographic information in the US. Keep in mind though that this country compensates entertainers and sports athletes better than virtually any other segment of our society.

http://www.machinedesign.com/

 

[Kenneth]

While we're on the subject of salary... thread731-22355 listed yet another site claiming to provide typical salary info (

http://www.salary.com).

This one's only good for the U.S.

 

[RDK]

In any salary comparison there are many things to consider besides base pay. If the comparison is across countries then the difficulty is compounded by tax rates and the social safety nets provided by governments as well as local cost of living differences.

In Canada we also have the distortion caused by geography. Living costs in the North are extremely high. Milk and other staples can be as much as 5-10x that charged in the populated south. (8$Cdn cans of pop, and that’s in the store not the mini bar in the hotel)

I also suggest that as a convention that we also explain what currency we are talking about especially for those of us outside the USA who use dollars as our currency. (and perhaps a rough conversion to the de facto world currency US$) (1 $Cdn=0.65 US$)

In Canada we have a high tax rate. It varies slightly with provincial taxes but the marginal rate is around 50% on top salaries (above some 30k $Cdn). The average tax rate for a salary in an engineer’s salary scale is about 30 to 35%. For this we get full national health care same as in the UK, This is a big expense (my understanding is 3-4kUS$ per family) for a US engineer and it can be paid either by the employer or the worker. In either case it distorts a direct comparison based on base earnings.

What is most likely a better guide to how well engineers are paid in any country is to compare the salary rates to what other common occupations earn.

As Red Trumpet has said, and I support, an engineer in Canada can earn in the 50 to 80 k$ Cdn range, This is for the basic journeyman level. I.e. no specialization or management duties and no graduate degree. For an engineer with a masters or in some speciality the rates would be 75-100 k $Cdn. With management duties and or some speciality area (computers for example) the top salary would be up to 150 k $Cdn.

For executive levels the sky’s the limit as I imagine it is everywhere.

Accountants salaries are somewhat similar to engineers. A basic general accountant will make 50 to 80 k $Cdn and someone with speciality experience (tax or estate planning) will be in the 80 to 100 k $Cdn range.

A teacher will after 5 or more years post secondary education and several years teaching experience make in the low end of the engineer’s range.

An average tradesman will make around 40k $Cdn. More if he is willing to travel to remote sites and work in camps. (The engineer will make more as well in these circumstances.)

Union environments generally pay tradesmen better. A top papermaker at a paper mill can make 90 to 100 k $Cdn. Unskilled labour in these environments can make $40 k Cdn annually.

A nurse will make close to 50k $Cdn, A doctor (GP) will make around 100 k $Cdn. We currently have a shortage of pharmacists and they can have their choice of jobs starting at 60 k $Cdn. However they do not rise much above this in retail work.

We also have a surplus of lawyers (no that’s not a joke) Thus an articling lawyer will get around 20 k $Cdn or less. An associate at a small firm is doing good to get 50 k $Cdn. The sole practitioner doing a general law (some real estate, some wills, some civil and some criminal work) can get 75 k $Cdn after expenses.

Given these ranges I think that engineer’s salaries are about right considering the education and responsibility levels.

If UK engineers are grossly underpaid then there will be an economic adjustment once the shortage of engineers drives up salary levels. This might take many years to happen.

With an international economy then other countries with lower costs or standards of living might compete with the local engineers. I know of one project, located in the third world where the detail engineering was hired out of India where costs were much lower.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[sparky1976]

Here as comparison,

I'm from third world country,
When I work in foreign investor project in my country,the engineer from US got 12K/month (not including his overtime),the local engineer got 200 to 300 usd/month, they do the same job, the same level, the same responsibility.

You can live simple life for 50 USD/month, if want to live convinient it takes 100 USD, if want to have social night life maybe it takes 200 USD.
The Engineer I know he spend 500 USD/month and he live like a king.