adding friction modifiers to motor oil 2

[JOHNDOE333]

Hello all,

I have become aware of the removal of some elements from motor oils to help reduce emissions. The elements such as zinc and magnanese have seemed to help flat tappet to cam lobe wear in pushrod engines, particularly in high spring pressure racing engines. Does anyone know if it possible to purchase these elements individually and add them back into the oil? Also does anyone have any knowledge with regards to the amount or percentage to add and in what form i.e. powder, liquid etc.?

-Good day

 

[evelrod]

A search in the Lubrication forum is advised...we've done this one to death.
Obviously, you can buy anything...This has been one of my latest peeves and at present, with the available off the shelf motor oils, including synthetics, I don't recommend adding "snake oil" to "improve" whatever. Perhaps in the future, maybe the immediate future, it may be advisable...not yet, though.

For a race engine you should be using one of the quality lubricants engineered for racing...Often a bit more expensive and sometimes difficult to find off the shelf at Wall Mart or such...That's why we have the internet (no sales tax?)...What's your race engine worth?

I use Redline but many other acceptable brands are out there.

Rod

 

[ivymike]

when I brought my recently-purchased used vehicle back to the dealership for the safety inspection and oil change (that they should have done before I drove home), they added a bit of snake seasoning to each of the major fluids... I was not terribly pleased, but didn't bother saying anything either (how much damage could it do before the next fluid change?).

 

[evelrod]

Probably little, Isaac. Except to your pocketbook. I often find ignorance in places where, by all rights, it should not exist.

Rod

 

[patprimmer]

I object when they try to talk me into useless additives and object strenuously when they add it without my permission and object with threats of legal action if they try to charge me for them. Same deal when they steal the thin layer of work hardened cast iron of my disk brake rotors.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[romke]

adding supplementary additives to a fully formulated engine oil is rightout dangerous. you have no way knowing what the effect would be because you neither know what is eactly in the original formulation nor what is in the additve can.

generally speaking the effect might be that some capability of the oil might be slightly improved - and not necessarily a capability that needs improvement. at the same time the various additives may well influence eacht other - and that may worsen other capabilities in the process to a level below that is actually needed.

although modern lowsaps engine oils do contain less metallic additives then they used to do, they have to meet higher standards in terms of antiwear and antioxidant protection then former engine oil specifications - and they do! there therefore is no need to add some form of snake oil.

as far as "friction reducers" are concerned: their effect in an engine oil is usually only marginal - they have only effect during startup and when shutting down the engine since they may influence the friction in the bearings in say the left part of the Stribeck curve. that may result in some reduction in fuel consumption in cars that are driven over short distances only, but when the everage triplength gets longer their effect is negligible

you generally will be far better off using the oil that meets the appropriate API or ACEA classification

 

[drwebb]

Friction modifiers (which can formally reduce _or_ increase friction), in terms of engine oil are usually reducers and added for the purpose of improving fuel efficiency as romke points out, principally by reducing friction- but not necessarily wear- in the valvetrain at low engine speeds.

Anti-wear additives are incorporated into engine oils to control valve train wear. Zinc does not have anti-wear properties, but is a convenient delivery device for phosphates that do when chemically compounded into oil soluble zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (ZDDP). Phosphate films formed from ZDDP typically have _higher_ coefficients of friction, so 'zinc' in motor oil terms is a pretty poor 'friction modifier'.

Compounds containing Molybdenum and Sulfur, under heat and pressure decompose to MoS2 which is a very effective friction reducer and also has anti-wear properties, so compounds such as molydemum dithiocarbonates (MoDTC) can function as both anti-wear and friction modifier additives.

High performance racing engines are not a typical application for passenger car motor oils, so those 'off-the-shelf' products may or may not give satisfactory performance. Raw additives direct from the manufacturer are usually sold in drum quantity minimums making it impractical for individuals to brew their own. As evelrod points out there are are a number of companies offering products specifically for racing applications, and are usually very helpful in recommending their appropriate product for your hardware. If you go that route they will probably expect to be rewarded with more than $1.79/qt for that service, but then you can spend your time tuning the motor for speed rather than formulating an oil for durability.

 

[evelrod]

Is that $1.79/qt. reclaimed or something? I recall the days when I was in Albuquerque that I bought reclaimed oil for ten cents a quart for an oil burning 49 Plymouth. ;-)
Oh....perhaps that's "too" long ago? :-(

Most racing oil goes for something like $7/qt and up. My Mini engine cost me something close to $15k and the Lotus $24K so it takes no great thought to use the best oil I can buy.

Rod

 

[dicer]

Snake oil? I think most oil today is just that. Especially with the very low base oil viscositys used.
There seem to be alot of low mileage failures that can be attributed to lubrication. Just an opinion.

 

[romke]

i have not seen may lowmileage failures and certainly not with low viscosity oils that meet modern specifications. it is quite possible to lubricate a well designed engine with a "thin" oil - Ferrari uses nowadays a 0W-20 formulation that is quite alike a standard fuel efficient passenger car engine oil in their formula 1 engines, appreciating a 5% powewr increase in comparison with a conventional SAE 40 "racing oil".

engines can fail for a lot of reasons, the main reasons being overheating due to lack of coolant or oil starvation due to lack of lubricant in the sump. both reasons have nothing to do with the quality or properties of the fluids involved, but are the result of blunt ignorance on the driver's side who does not occasionally check whether the fluids that should be there are there indeed.

 

[carnage1]

reclaimed oil? you mean old oil run through a set of womens pantyhose to remove the chunks ?
As for oil "additives" I have a favorite, guaranteed to reduce engine wear from startup. an oil accumulator

 

[evelrod]

I use an Accusump brand accumulator on both our race cars. It functions well as a pre oiler on the Lotus and is an essential part of the lube system on the Mini. The Lotus raced from 1966 until we got it back in 2004, sans accumulator with no oiling failures noted my me or any of the other owner/drivers. The Mini, however is a different kettle of fish. Without the 3qt. Accusump, I would have lost at least one engine and perhaps more in the last six seasons. With the unusual lube system of the Mini, anything that contributes to oil pressure in difficult situations is a God send.

For a street driven car? As a pre oiler it would be nice as long as you can justify the expense and difficulty of installation and service. I've got a lot of miles on cars and tow trucks without ever having an oil related problem. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to check oil levels and see that normal service is taken care of.

dicer...Low mileage failures? I'm around cars pretty much 24/7 and I haven't seen a low mileage failure in a long, long time. Even then, the last failure was an owner/operator failure that precipitated the engine stoppage. My wife's Lincoln is doing fine at 155,000 miles on 5W-20 Motorcraft syn blend (dealer serviced since new).

Rod

 

[GregLocock]

" 5% power increase in comparison with a conventional SAE 40 "racing oil"."

I gotta say, cite?






Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[carnage1]

the expense and instilation time are easy to justify, just as long as it is shiny and maybe has stickers
but I must ask what extra service should be performed on an accumulator?

 

[evelrod]

carnage1
The extra step of draining and refilling at the regular service intervals and the normal regular inspection of oil level in the sump (in the event of regulator failure...it happens) and at least daily inspection of the pressure setting and oil lines as these things tend to be remotely located in often difficult to access locations. Nothing that any do it yourselfer could not handle. But the average Joe or Jane?

I agree that it would probably add to the life of the bearings if properly installed, serviced and, used...Just a bit too much for me, and I use them on both our race cars!

Rod

 

[patprimmer]

If the bearings in a daily driver last well over 100,000 miles, and other engine components like rings, cams, followers and valves last no longer, what is the point of increasing bearing life. It is already adequate.

Race cars are a different case as oil surge can uncover the pick up and cause catastrophic failures in an instant.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[SonyAD]

I use a fully synthetic (SAE group IV, V or a blend? I don't know, waiting for a reply to my email) diesel oil that likely has a similar formulation, as far as base stocks are concerned, to their "ACEA A3-98/B3-98 Issue 2/B4-98 ; API SM/CF ; BMW Longlife-98 ; MB-Freigabe 229.1 ; MB-Freigabe 229.3 ; Porsche ; VW 502.00 / 505.00" petrol synthetic.

Naturally, the variant specifically for diesel has fewer certifications. No Porsche, A3-98, API SM approvals. Probably has SOME friction modifiers and wear additives.

In conjunction with their oil I use their MoS2 (not MoDTC or other) oil additive.

They also make a semisynthetic (they claim has the lowest wear rates of all their lubricants) with MoS2 in since formulation. Its approvals are: "ACEA A3-98/B3-98 ; API SJ/CF/SH/CF/EC".

You won't see API SM or SL (and other norms that purport to regulate against catalytic converter contamination) certified oils with metallic antiwear and friction modifier additives.

I'd love to see manufacturers start fitting electric oil pumps and oil preheaters to their production cars as standard to reduce turn-over wear to a minimum but I won't hold my breath. They'd sooner make slushboxes standard.

They're a german oil brewery and their products, like most things in Europe, are an arm and a leg more expensive than even the priciest oils in the US though not that much more expensive than other Euro brand oils.

I won't name them so as not to be seen as promoting commercially.

 

[SonyAD]

Reply arrived. SAE group IV:

Dear Sir,

thank you very much for your email, dtd. 28th July 2008 and for your interest in ********** products.

Our ************************** 5W-40, from part-no. 1340 ore part-no. 1341 - 5 liters, is a fully synthetic motor oil and SAE group IV.

If you have any more question, don´t hesitate to contact us again!


With best regards from Germany!

i.A.
Dietmar Schmid

***** **** GmbH
Anwendungstechnik/Application Engineering
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4
D-89081 Ulm-Lehr