So here is the situation. I have been working for an AE consulting company for a year now. The owner of the company hired my boss about 14 months ago to start up a Civil/Surveying department. My boss hired me 2 months later, and then a couple months later he hired a surveyor. It hasn’t been the best of experiences because my boss had not done any surveying or site design work in the past 25 years. I have stuck with it though because of the economy and just to get some time under my belt. But to get to the main point, yesterday he took me and the surveyor out for lunch and told us he was leaving the company on Nov. 1. He is going to work for another company. The company he is going to is being started by 5 or 6 guys that quit their jobs last week in the Environmental Engineering department of this company. They decided to start their own company and have apparently been planning this move for a while. So my boss told me and my surveyor that he would like us to go to this new company with him. I asked him if we would be doing Civil Engineering work at the new company and his answer was basically a no. It will mostly be dealing with environmental site cleanups. I am within 1-2 years of being able to take my PE exam and become licensed, and not sure if moving to this company will be beneficial for me. My boss has told me and the surveyor not to say anything about him leaving to the owner of the company we are at now, for fear that he will be fired on the spot. So me and the surveyor already don’t like working for our boss, but if we were to stay at this company I could see the owner pulling the plug on the whole department. I am not sure if he would hire someone to replace my boss or not. So I am stuck with moving to that new company, staying here, or looking elsewhere for a job. I would really like the owner of the company i'm at now to know what is going on so that he can decide if he would like to keep a Civil/Survey department, or figure out how to re-assign me or whatever he would do. My boss says that he is looking out for the best interest of me and the surveyor, but to me it seems that isn’t the case at all. I’ve probably left some details out, but any comments/advice/thoughts would be apprectiated!
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An Odd Situation 6
- Thread starter ttuterry
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He shouldn't have told you at all. He must have assumed you would jump ship with him. Hard to give advice because there is no predicting what will happen if he leaves and you stay.
I can tell you if you tell the owner the civil boss will be fired and you will have lost your job offer with him and still not know if you are going to have a job. As well as burned 5 or 6 bridges of the others who will be fired.
If you do go with him and he is licensed you will still be working under a licensed engineer regardless of the type of work you are performing and can count those years towards your PE. And you can take your PE specialty in any one you want to.
Does not sound pleasant. I hope you sleep well tonite. Good luck with your decision.
I can tell you if you tell the owner the civil boss will be fired and you will have lost your job offer with him and still not know if you are going to have a job. As well as burned 5 or 6 bridges of the others who will be fired.
If you do go with him and he is licensed you will still be working under a licensed engineer regardless of the type of work you are performing and can count those years towards your PE. And you can take your PE specialty in any one you want to.
Does not sound pleasant. I hope you sleep well tonite. Good luck with your decision.
Were you close with your boss? Why else would he tell you beforehand that he was leaving? He could have just as well waited until he quit, and then called you.
If I liked my boss, and didn't like my job then if the circumstances were right, I'd jump with him. If it's vice versa, then you're in a tough spot.
V
If I liked my boss, and didn't like my job then if the circumstances were right, I'd jump with him. If it's vice versa, then you're in a tough spot.
V
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1
- #5
casseopeia
Structural
Say nothing to your current employer about this guy leaving. The messenger of bad news is rarely rewarded. Take care of yourself first. Never assume anyone is giving you information for your benefit. It is self-serving on his part.
Be non-comital with your boss who is leaving if this does not sound like something you want to pursue.
Dress up the resume and start looking for alternate work.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
vc66:
They may have a clause signed preventing them to steal the employees from the current employer.
ttuterry:
You obviously are not that close to your boss, otherwise you would not have posted here.
You always can tell those rebels, that once they are up and running they can make you an offer and you will think about it. This leaves you an opening, if those rebels are in fact a bunch of smart people and are successful in the future.
You appear to be just starting your career, I can't imagine what special or more will they offer you, compared to your current 'established' employer. If you were an experienced engineer, who would command a authoritative or a key position in the new company it would have been a different matter. He appears to be looking for a cheap help.
You also want to review what contract you signed when you joined, especially the non-compete clause. The 'rebels' may not have singed the same thing as you , years ago. Modern contracts are more restrictive.
Although you will not be starting your own business against the current employer, if you leave with the rebels and the current employer decides to sue them, you could end up being one of the defendants. But there would be no issues, working for them at a later date.
I would not assume that the current employer will close the department. They can find the replacement. In fact, you would stand a better chance to get another employment or even collect unemployment (if in the USA) if let go by the current employer, than say if you were to go with the rebels and they letting you go due to lack of work soon after!
On other notes, I hate unethical people. You can't trust them for any other things. It is one thing to leave a company and start your own (which I also did a few months ago) and it is another to steal the employees of your current owner and basically undermine the very employer who supported you for so many years.
For this reason alone I would not go with him.
As for letting your current owner know, be careful. Except for the current owner himself, the person you may go to and confide to may be one of the rebels!
If you have good rapport with the current owner, it may be ethical to let him know. But if he lets out your name, it wont' do any good to you. Key is not to burn your bridges and contacts. If you are new to the firm, just play dumb and stay out of the mess. It may have roots in previous details that you may not be aware of. If someone specifically asks, you can say you have heard the rumors.
Rafiq Bulsara
They may have a clause signed preventing them to steal the employees from the current employer.
ttuterry:
You obviously are not that close to your boss, otherwise you would not have posted here.
You always can tell those rebels, that once they are up and running they can make you an offer and you will think about it. This leaves you an opening, if those rebels are in fact a bunch of smart people and are successful in the future.
You appear to be just starting your career, I can't imagine what special or more will they offer you, compared to your current 'established' employer. If you were an experienced engineer, who would command a authoritative or a key position in the new company it would have been a different matter. He appears to be looking for a cheap help.
You also want to review what contract you signed when you joined, especially the non-compete clause. The 'rebels' may not have singed the same thing as you , years ago. Modern contracts are more restrictive.
Although you will not be starting your own business against the current employer, if you leave with the rebels and the current employer decides to sue them, you could end up being one of the defendants. But there would be no issues, working for them at a later date.
I would not assume that the current employer will close the department. They can find the replacement. In fact, you would stand a better chance to get another employment or even collect unemployment (if in the USA) if let go by the current employer, than say if you were to go with the rebels and they letting you go due to lack of work soon after!
On other notes, I hate unethical people. You can't trust them for any other things. It is one thing to leave a company and start your own (which I also did a few months ago) and it is another to steal the employees of your current owner and basically undermine the very employer who supported you for so many years.
For this reason alone I would not go with him.
As for letting your current owner know, be careful. Except for the current owner himself, the person you may go to and confide to may be one of the rebels!
If you have good rapport with the current owner, it may be ethical to let him know. But if he lets out your name, it wont' do any good to you. Key is not to burn your bridges and contacts. If you are new to the firm, just play dumb and stay out of the mess. It may have roots in previous details that you may not be aware of. If someone specifically asks, you can say you have heard the rumors.
Rafiq Bulsara
What your boss did was unethical. It's OK to tell you he's leaving, but he should not have tried to recruit you unless you were going to be a partner.
As someone else noted, he might be under a non-compete, no recruiting agreement with the current employer. If so, he has most certainly breached that agreement.
As for your licensing dilemma, as long as you work under the supervision of a licensed P.E., the you are covered from a qualifications standpoint, provided of course that the work you are doing is in fact engineering. If it is not, then you have a problem.
As someone else noted, he might be under a non-compete, no recruiting agreement with the current employer. If so, he has most certainly breached that agreement.
As for your licensing dilemma, as long as you work under the supervision of a licensed P.E., the you are covered from a qualifications standpoint, provided of course that the work you are doing is in fact engineering. If it is not, then you have a problem.
Um, do they have some kind of pot of gold to fund them for the forseable future so that you can be fairly confident they can pay your check, and your payroll taxes etc.
While few jobs are 'secure' some are even less secure than others and being the junior staffer at a start up in bleak economic times...
While few jobs are 'secure' some are even less secure than others and being the junior staffer at a start up in bleak economic times...
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
I doubt very much that ttuterry's boss was violating any kind of non-compete, regardless of when he signed it. I also don't believe that ttuterry himself would be violating any non-compete if he left. The reason I say this is because in the OP, it was stated that the new company will be doing something different than what he's doing now. Assuming he's in the U.S., more often than not, there is right-to-work sentiment. If he's not competing directly with his old employer, there is no breach of contract (usually, unless you signed a terrible non-compete).
If his boss is starting a new company that's not competing with his current employer, what's the difference? Maybe I'm missing something.
V
If his boss is starting a new company that's not competing with his current employer, what's the difference? Maybe I'm missing something.
V
Add to that the fact that the start-up would be doing "environmental site cleanup" and there is a good chance that it may be a success. I'm not sure how that would line up with the OPs desired PE, however.
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]
"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]
vc66:
Non-compete does not prevent starting your own business, as you rightly mention. It is there to prevent soliciting work from the current clients. But that does not prevent a large from suing, even if they lose and most do lose.
Prohibiting soliciting employees of the previous employer is a different matter is often part of the non-compete clause.
Rafiq Bulsara
Non-compete does not prevent starting your own business, as you rightly mention. It is there to prevent soliciting work from the current clients. But that does not prevent a large from suing, even if they lose and most do lose.
Prohibiting soliciting employees of the previous employer is a different matter is often part of the non-compete clause.
Rafiq Bulsara
Do you have enough time working under a PE to be able to take the exam? If not, will you be able to get the experience you need by staying at the current job? You're going to have to look out for yourself first. A licensed PE should be able to make a case for working at an AE firm to do site work and utility design, even if they don't have a civil department.
I think your boss did put you in a terrible position. Should you be loyal to your (current for the moment) boss or the owner of your company. I think your ethical duty lies with the owner of the company since that is who is ultimatly responsible for your paycheck. That said I would not run to the owner and tattle. This could backfire on you almost as badly as leaving the company with your boss.
I would definatly stay at the company where you are but suggest to the boss that if the department is closed you would still be interested in coming to work for him. I'd also reassure him that you will not tell the boss. My biggest quandry is whether to tell the owner in some general "I've heard rumors" anonymous way. If the owner asks you did you know about this you would then be able so say that yes, but I did leave an anonymous note letting you know. Otherwise the owner may feel you're complicit in the rebellion even if you didn't leave.
Yeah, your boss put you in a moral cess pool. Good luck with it.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
I would definatly stay at the company where you are but suggest to the boss that if the department is closed you would still be interested in coming to work for him. I'd also reassure him that you will not tell the boss. My biggest quandry is whether to tell the owner in some general "I've heard rumors" anonymous way. If the owner asks you did you know about this you would then be able so say that yes, but I did leave an anonymous note letting you know. Otherwise the owner may feel you're complicit in the rebellion even if you didn't leave.
Yeah, your boss put you in a moral cess pool. Good luck with it.
-Kirby
Kirby Wilkerson
Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.
- Thread starter
- #14
A little more info after reading everybody's posts...I do have a good working relationship with my boss. I don't like working for him though, and that is part of the reason I don't want to go with him. I have been questioning the ethics of the whole things as well. He said he didn't want to be unethical in leaving, but as Ron's post said, it seems that it is unethical that he is trying to recruit us to go with him. The work at the new company would be funded by the government. I live in Texas and the cleanup of these sites is funded by TCEQ (Texas Commission on Environmental Quality) from what I understood. Why my boss would go to a company like that also baffles me. The company I am at now will be doing that same work and will be in competition with the new company. I don't know about how it's all working legally, but I did overhear the owner of the company I'm at now saying it was a big mess and he was talking with lawyers. So that is another red light for me jump ship with my boss to the new company. As you said sam74, it was difficult to sleep last night and has made the past 2 days very unsettling. Thanks for everyone's input so far.
You would do well to explore your third option starting now; start looking for a new job now.
It gives you three choices:
[ul][li]go with your boss to the new company[/li]
[li]stay where you are[/li]
[li]be ready to jump somewhere else[/li][/ul]
The first two options could leave you up the creek so you need a contingency.
Oh, and be glad you know ahead of time that some day soon the s**t is going to hit the fan.
JMW
It gives you three choices:
[ul][li]go with your boss to the new company[/li]
[li]stay where you are[/li]
[li]be ready to jump somewhere else[/li][/ul]
The first two options could leave you up the creek so you need a contingency.
Oh, and be glad you know ahead of time that some day soon the s**t is going to hit the fan.
JMW
There is nothing to lose sleep about. You did not create situation. Worse things happen to people without notice.
Just be as usual and keep looking for a better job.
Rafiq Bulsara
Just be as usual and keep looking for a better job.
Rafiq Bulsara
if the new company will be competing directly, then the existing company would want to keep you.
Has the "potential" start up company offered you anything? Have you asked?
if you want to invest your future in this start up company they need to make a proposal to you that will include renumeration and what the escape routes are. What happens if the company goes belly up, what will happen to you?
I would be investigating what the start-up has to offer before making a decision, or loosing sleep. If the offer is exciting, it may then cause me to loose sleep.
Has the "potential" start up company offered you anything? Have you asked?
if you want to invest your future in this start up company they need to make a proposal to you that will include renumeration and what the escape routes are. What happens if the company goes belly up, what will happen to you?
I would be investigating what the start-up has to offer before making a decision, or loosing sleep. If the offer is exciting, it may then cause me to loose sleep.
JMW and purdue87 have the best advice. Steer clear of the new company, especially if you signed a non-compete clause, and have you resume ready. I would even go so far as to start looking for something else. It's a bad situation everyone involved and I wouldn't get wrapped up in it.
Non-compete clauses are pretty limited against restraint-of-trade laws. An employer can not stop you from simply quitting and taking another job with another employer.
However, most non-compete clauses hold up pretty well against employees that quit to form competing businesses, especially if that employees is using inside knowledge of his employer to gain an advantage. If your current employer was inclined, he could get a court order stalling your boss's efforts indefinitely.
However, most non-compete clauses hold up pretty well against employees that quit to form competing businesses, especially if that employees is using inside knowledge of his employer to gain an advantage. If your current employer was inclined, he could get a court order stalling your boss's efforts indefinitely.
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