Anyone using STAAD(X) 6

[dozer]

I would have posted this on the STAAD forum but it seems to not get much traffic. I'm curious if anyone is using STAAD(X) for actual production work. Supposedly STAAD.Pro will be discontinued at some point (I don't think anybody at Bentley will say when) and this will be used in its stead. This thing has been out for nearly four years now and I still hear very little buzz about it. The usual response I get when I ask a fellow engineer about it is "What's that?".

A new version of it came out in August and I've played with it a little bit. As far as I can tell (and again, I haven't spent much time) it doesn't do the direct analysis method (DAM). At least not with minimal user intervention like STAAD.Pro does. It still seems like its a long way from being ready for prime time.

 

[WARose]

I use STAAD Pro everyday and this is the first time I’ve heard of STAAD X. Will be interesting to see what bells and whistles they add……I’m pretty much satisfied with what I have.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I never really understood what they were envisioning with that product. Isn't it just an updated version of their existing product? Maybe it will be an extensive re-write. But, how would it be fundamentally different? It just seems odd....

The pessimist in me figured that it could have been an attempt by REI to generate some revenue... similar to what they did with the STAAD-III to STAAD-Pro transition. I know there were a lot of STAAD users who were really peeved with REI when that transition happened. ISo, it's hard to believe that they would repeat that mistake. But, you never know.

 

[WARose]

I was pretty happy with the update to STAAD Pro....IIRC, STAAD III had certain limitations which made evaluating results a bit more difficult.

They’ve already updated the version of STAAD Pro I use with the one thing I felt it lacked: more realistically behaving solid elements. The [8-noded] solid elements in earlier versions were way too stiff (a problem inherent in a lot of software for this type of element; I think STAAD fixed it by introducing rotational degrees of freedom at the nodes). Will be interesting to see if this update has some type of “p method” of meshing or something else along those lines.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

WARose -

I believe the source of the frustration was that that STAAD-Pro was considered a "NEW" product. Therefore, the folks who had been paying yearly maintenance / subscription fees for STAAD-III were still forced to purchase the "new" program when it came out.

I only spoke up because that sounded very similar to what they were talking about doing with the STAAD-Pro to STAAD-X transition. Perhaps I'm the only one who remembers this... or maybe my recollection is imperfect on this subject.

Disclaimer: I currently work for a competitor of STAAD's. Therefore, the information I have on the STAAD-III to STAAD-Pro transition is mostly 2nd hand knowledge... based on phone calls I've had with former STAAD customers or employees. Also, please note that I cannot exactly be viewed as a neutral/ unbiased party on this subject (or on anything related to STAAD).

 

[Gumpmaster]

I've checked it out. I agree, it currently isn't ready for prime time, and I think if pressed, Bentley would agree with that.

Josh, It's a pretty extensive change to STAAD Pro. The user interface has changed a lot already and I don't think they're done with the changes. I hadn't used STAAD III, but I can't imagine that the STAAD Pro UI has changed much at all since then, and that's not a good thing. The development of STAAD Pro has been pretty sluggish (static maybe) for the last quite a few years. No real exciting developments.

One of the other fundamental changes is the way STAAD handles physical members. The way STAAD pro handles physical members is really bad at best.

That said, I wouldn't dream of using STAAD X on an actual job at this point. It's clunky, obtuse, quirkey ... I actually have no idea why Bentley released it as a finished product while it's in its current state. It's more of a well polished beta. Maybe it gets the product into peoples hands so they can provide feedback for future development?

Maybe one of the Bentley folks who lurk around here can weigh in on the development path for STAAD X.

 

[dozer]

The responses, or should I say lack of responses, pretty much tells me nobody is using this yet. Josh, I hope your wrong about them expecting us to buy it all over again. Right now they offer it for "free" to STAAD.Pro users, which is really a great deal for them because they get free Beta testers. Hmm, maybe even alpha at this point. Since it supposedly will replace STAAD.Pro someday I don't think they would make us pay a whole new initial price. If they do, I'll be switching programs.

One of my concerns with this new program is will it have all the the bells and whistles like OpenSTAAD and the SQL database thingy that really come in handy? (Although I suspect most people don't use these features.) And what about the interface to RAM Connection? I am hopeful about the physical member implementation though. Gumpmaster, your right, about how STAAD.Pro handles physical members except I would say it's completely useless.

Oh well, I guess we'll see.

 

[sasa2k]

I found this link on Bentley forum:

http://communities.bentley.com/prod...012/09/05/staad-x-selectseries-2-release.aspx

Apparently they are talking about a "new release" of STAAD(X), but I couldn't find the actual website.

STAAD Pro has always been a cheep, second rate product, and it was time to scrap the whole thing long ago. Lets hope for the best with this new edition.

 

[dozer]

Too bad someone from Bentley doesn't "weigh in" as Gumpmaster suggested. I find the whole thing very odd. Bentley doesn't even list it with their structural analysis and design software. I think this is going to be the "New Coke" of structural analysis software.

 

[CarlosAguera]

Let me start by saying that I am the product manager for STAAD.Pro and STAAD(X) and have been involved in the development of STAAD since it was brought out of the DOS and its early foray into Windows days of STAAD III.
STAAD.Pro continues to be a widely respected application and has benefits from an ever growing user base. Since the acquisition of STAAD by Bentley in 2005, it is now regularly used by more users in more countries than ever before.
As in many areas of life, pushing forward with ground breaking developments has to be balanced with solidity and continuity. I appreciate that where some people see a lack of change, others see stability, which is vital for large organisations that work on projects that operate over years and cannot swap systems midstream no matter what the latest fashions may offer.
However, we recognise that the engineers are changing in working practise and that we need to provide a different way of approaching structural analysis, even if the analysis itself is no different in many ways from that which was being solved with the first ventures into Gaussian elimination.
STAAD(X) is a wholesale change of not just UI but underlying modelling philosophy from STAAD.Pro and a move to physical rather than analytical modelling. It reflects the growth of BIM in structural engineering and integrated offices by incorporating ISM management. The UI uses technology drawn from MicroStation and design modules are being developed to be pluggable so that more can be added without the application to be reinstalled. Profile databases are being developed with the aim that in future they can be managed on central severs making it easier for organisations to administer on a project and/or user level.
I am sure you can imagine that developing a complete new structural analysis application that draws on the current and changing technologies is no five minute challenge. We have been working on this over the last few years, whilst at the same time as adding to STAAD.Pro to continue to serve the STAAD.Pro community.
So the question to you is what do you want from your structural analysis? If it is the comfort of the well-established STAAD.Pro analytical modelling, then you still have that, but STAAD(X) is about the future and physical modelling which will require a change in perspective and exciting new possibilities and benefits. STAAD(X) is available now and I would suggest you download and look at it. Unlike the change from STAADIII to STAAD.Pro there is currently no additional charge as STAAD(X) is licensed with STAAD.Pro licenses. The last release was focused on the requirements of Australian engineers, but next year we will be releasing a version that addresses specific US requirements including Direct Analysis and updating the US design codes.
So by all means please continue to use STAAD.Pro, but look at STAAD(X) and start to see where the future of structural analysis and design is heading.

 

[WillisV]

Thanks for the feedback Carlos - it is always good to hear things straight form the source.

 

[JedClampett]

To respond to Carlos, we're a Bentley superuser, or whatever they call it. So we use Bentley software extensively. What I personally want is:
1) Compatibility. I want to be able to use new software, in this case STAAD(X), with my existing models.
2) Intuitiveness. Can someone sign on and use this software, with minimal instruction? We don't have time or money to retrain all the users of STAAD.Pro, so we need to be able to blow and go. Even if training is free, on-line, someone has to pay for the time.
3) A good reason to upgrade. Even though we probably get this for our yearly subscription, why go to it? If I had to pay for it, how do I explain to my boss the advantages?
4) Better output. I know that you can customize reports, but way too often, I see calculations with hundreds of pages of indecipherable computer vomit. I realize that this is difficult, as what I might want is different than what others prefer. Maybe some standard reports of models, loads and highest shears and moments on each member could be preloaded. Plus, why can't we import the model dara (the input file) into a report? A reviewer might inherit the project and have to run it on another platform. Having the model would give them a consistent starting point.

 

[sasa2k]

Response to Carlos:

I have been using STAAD Pro for many years, not because I like it, but because I dont have a choice - it is the only structural FE software available were I work. The scenario is common - many companies are offered "a good deal" from Bentley to buy staad licenses. Salesman convince the management that this is "the leading tool". Once the users realize they are dealing with low-quality product its too late. So much money has already been invested that no one wants to try anything different. But the price is paid later in countless man-hours spent on modeling/fixing the model/extracting data.


Some comments re: your post:
"STAAD.Pro continues to be a widely respected application"
No its not - majority of engineering I know, including myself, consider staad pro low-qulity, buggy, crappy, cumbersome software. I met couple of users who considered staad great, user friendly software, but when I asked - compared to what - the answer was - STRESS (25 years old text based DOS program).

"...pushing forward with ground breaking developments"
Can you exactly list what "ground breaking developments" has been introduced in staad?

"So the question to you is what do you want from your structural analysis?"
- see JedClampett post
- Working help
- Interoperability (+IFC support)
- Same section tables across Bently products (try to exchange file with ProSteel and you will understand)
- Professionally design UI
- Strong modelling tools
- Link, Cable, T/C only members etc.
- Line, Plate supports
- Ability to easily create custom sections
- Physical members
- Cardinal points for sections
- Grid lines and modeling aids
- Powerful automatic meshing
- Flexible loads
- Advertised features that are working (automatic climatic loads, load comb, ...)
- Section lines and averaging strips for shell/plate elements
- Professionally looking reports

What I dont want:
- Countless notification. For example - "Autosave will save your project now" popping up every 5 min is just dumb.(yes - you can turn this off, but then you turned off autosave too)
- Batch mode
- 200 members limitation in text input file
- Falsely designed members
- Discrepancies between Screen Output / Reports / Tables


"So by all means please continue to use STAAD.Pro, but look at STAAD(X) and start to see where the future of structural analysis and design is heading."
Judging by staad.pro Bentley should first try to catch the present and then think about the future. You dont have to reinvent the wheel - there are some great tools on the market already. Look at SCIA Engineer, Dlubal, AxisVM to see what how professional software should look/work and copy/adjust the same concept to North American market.

 

[WARose]

I guess if I had to make a laundry list of some of the things I wish STAAD Pro could do:

--Be able to view element forces in the graphics window. Currently, you can get [Global] corner forces by using the “PRINT ELEMENT FORCES” command (without it, you can only get stresses, and moments in post-processing). But it’s kind of difficult (if you are [for example] trying to locate a maximum shear) to manipulate that output into finding what you want……when it shows up in the spreadsheets in post-processing, you can paste it into excel and find what you are looking for.

--For a Time-History analysis (under sinusoidal loading) in post-processing, it would be nice to be able to locate the point of maximum velocity & acceleration quickly. Currently, you kind of have to look around for it. It does give you the node for maximum displacement……but I kind of wonder if that isn’t steady state motion, because you will look around and find nodes that have higher transient motion that what it gives. (Perhaps if there was a way of separating the two…..maybe maximum [whatever] before/after (say) 3 seconds.

--Corner Forces for solids. (Currently you just get stresses.)

 

[WARose]

Oh and something else: transfer forces through all member connections. Currently STAAD can tell you the transfer force from column to girder…..but I wish it could do it for all member connections (rather than designing for what likely are member forces that don’t transfer).

 

[dozer]

Sasa2k, I agree (except I'm not sure what you meant by the 200 member in text input files). Like you, we're kind of locked into STAAD because we have so many STAAD models. Right now STAAD(X) does a poor job of importing STAAD.Pro files. Which to me is good news, bad news. The good news being that now I'll be able to go to my boss and say "Hey, they're discontinuing STAAD.Pro and the new thing won't read in our files worth a crap so we might as well look around for a better package."

I'm interested that you pointed out the discrepancies between Screen Output / Reports / Tables. I've complained to them for years (and filled out bug reports) that there are times when the moment diagram window you get when you double click on a member doesn't match their results in the table. They can't fix fundamental problems like this yet they want to brag about being cutting edge or whatever. It's just ridiculous.

 

[Gumpmaster]

First, I'm an extensive user of STAAD Pro, but I also have access to SAP2000 and VisualAnalysis, so when I use STAAD, it's by choice (somewhat, STAAD is our company's analysis software of choice). Yes STAAD Pro (and STAAD X) have problems, but the folks at Bentley are more than willing to listen to your gripes, problems, suggestions.... I would suggest that you contact Carlos, or one of the other Bentley folks, directly with your issues. It's important to log them as service tickets so that Bentley can keep track of everything, but contacting a specific person has worked wonders for me and my co-workers in resolving problems (yes, it may help that we have hundreds of STAAD users, and thousands of total Bentley licenses).

Second, you may think that the grass is way greener on the other side of the fence, but It's not that much better when you actually get to the other side. I find myself using STAAD for some types of models, and SAP for other types of models. I'm totally free to use whichever I want. STAAD definately has some plusses and (a lot of) minuses, but so does SAP. I'd encourage you to have an actual dialogue with the STAAD developers and provide your specific insights and desires rather than just throwing up your hands and giving up. It may feel nice to do so, but doesn't solve any problems. I'd rather work with Bentley to make STAAD X the best structural analysis program around than to just give up on them.

I personally think it's refreshing that Bentley is willing to more or less start from the ground up and develop a new version of STAAD. I also think it's great that some of the RAM employees are around now to provide direction as well (I'd think you'd all agree that the RAM products are much more useable that STAAD). Those folks are helping to make the future version of STAAD more useable as well.

I'd also like to thank Carlos for taking the time and applying the courage necessary to put himself out there and contact the users directly (Josh Plum, I think it's great you do that too). It's not easy hearing the product that you work daily to improve be denegrated.

What I would encourage Bentley to do is to provide more transparency on the future of STAAD X because it seems pretty opaque at this point, and that galls a lot of people.

 

[dozer]

Gump, thanks for a calm voice amist the storm. Yeah, I can get wound up but you've got to realize, I do fill out service tickets and I do talk to the guys at Bentley. I've spent probably hundreds of hours documenting bugs in the last four or five years. When I get told they will be fixed and they just linger on for months and months, it's pretty frustrating.

As far as them being opaque about STAAD(X), I'm not sure that it really galls that many people because they are so opaque that most people don't even know about it .

 

[FDiego]

Hello everyone,
I appreciate the comments and your interest in STAAD(X). Counter to perception, these comments are considered seriously at Bentley and have been the subject of much debate.

As we make a generational shift in product [lines], the temptation is to wait until everything is 100% complete and then launch. In this case we chose to do a technology preview to try solicit input and advice, not just on what’s missing relative to the current STAAD(X) (hopefully we know these things), but to engage our current and possible users to get your feedback on everything from functionality, ease of use, reporting, UI, interoperability, etc. Hopefully you can look at these versions (that, granted, they should be coined technology previews as opposed to betas) and give us your feedback and input.

We are working towards a Fall major update release for STAAD(X) and we welcome all comments towards the goal of producing something truly exceptional.

Feel free to contact me or Carlos privately for any questions/comments/suggestions you might have about the new STAAD(X). Thank you!