Are the physical sciences dying in the UK?

[BitTwiddler]

http://education.independent.co.uk/news/article295550.ece

"The closure of more university courses in key subjects such as maths and science are inevitable, the head of the Government's higher education funding watchdog said.

Sir Howard Newby, chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for England (Hefce), warned against getting into a 'moral panic' when a university physics or chemistry department was threatened with closure, saying they were '19th-century' disciplines. Since 1997, nearly one in three physics courses has closed, leaving just 50 around the country."

In the USA, our politicians at least give lip service to the value of science and engineering. They rarely vote for significant increases in spending for the physical sciences, but they do not publicize their disdain for them (except for a handful of wacky right-wing Creationists).

It appears that British politicians won't even give lip service to the scientists.

I am an American who went to college in the US. My faculty advisor was an expatriate British physicist. Was he among the last of a dying breed?

I will ask three separate questions to begin the discussion:

1) Are the "hard" physical sciences (physics, chemistry, biology, etc.) declining to the point of virtual extinction in the UK?

2) Do the British people care at all if their science labs close down?

3) Are British companies doing anything to slow down or stop the decay?

I hope that this trend does not cross over to my side of the Atlantic Ocean.

 

[makeup]

I dont really know all the in's and outs but can relate to 'one' event.

A few years ago I was at a summer school at Nottingahm Uni doing solid mechanics Open University. I was speaking to a tutor there who said that he enjoyed teaching us because we were there with a specific interest. Of his regular students a larger percentage were there bcause their families told them to, or the boyfriend was in the class, or just because everyone else was there. So could it be that we (UK) in an attempt to give everyone access to higher eductaion has flooded it with people who were never going to benefit and therefore these closures are just a way of taking us back to normal structure.

Are we bothered, well that depends on how useful this learning will be in our careers. With this downturn in engineering you only need a few centres of excellence to cope with demand. So I think yes we are bothered and we could be concentrating our efforts (if only this were true).

Are companies doing anything to stop it, probably only the large organisations.

 

[DrillerNic]

Sir Howard Newby does sound a bit of a tosser, if he's been accurately quoted as describing physics & chemistry as "19th century disciplines",( as opposed to say marketing or public relations as 21st century disciplines. I wonder what his academic backgorund is, PPE?

I do remember reading something suggesting that some subjects including Physics, Chemistry and Mathsare regarded as hard at school and so are unpopular at post 14 and post 16 in schools. Apparently, this reputation stems in part from their nature as objective 'right or wrong' type subjects as opposed to English and Histroy whihc are more subjective.

Add to that, that most mathematics, physics and chemistry graduates can make more money in other careers than teaching, so the number of specialised teachers in these subjects is dropping, whihc must affect subject choices at school. Maths graduates now get a special bursary, a golden hello and full funding for their teaching courses, I guess the UK government is recognises a problem and is trying to do something.

 

[corus]

"It appears that British politicians won't even give lip service to the scientists."

Appears to whom? Which politicians? Please give some backing to this comment otherwise it's just an uninformed opinion being made.

The answer to the questions are
1) what a load of twaddle
2) In general British people are more concerned about what happens on Eastenders
3) The question assumes decay. See 1)

corus

 

[Drej]

I agree with corus. I think that the use of the word "extinction" over-dramatises the current situation. I'm sure certain people believe -- admissions tutors and government officials for instance -- that by giving out scaremongering statistics they will create enough panic to make students actually believe them. They need the money after all. Yes, the sciences (chemistry in particular) are in decline in terms of students applying for these courses universities, but to say that science itself is in decline (as I've intepreted your meaning) is extreme. This is typical of the cyclical academic activity anyway as far as I'm aware, not helped by sky-rocketing student fees (although I think they should call these PARENT fees). If anything in industry the number of people employed directly by the sciences has increased ever since the UK started to become one-big-office-block (ref. decline in manufacturing/heavy industries/engineering/etc. sector and increase in call centres/etc.). Hence, my answers are:

1) No.
2) Yes. I do. (Although I'm not an Eastenders fan - ref. corus)
3) See (1)

Cheers.


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[arunmrao]

I can say with reference to Indian scenario that the situation in science courses is pathetic. Pure science stream has hardly any takers. Most opting for computer science courses and the rest at call centres. The guys in pure science or in mechanical sciences are considered failures in society by economic standards. There is a sharp change in value system.

Labs,courses and universities are closing down with very little support. The only bright signs are seen in biotechnology and related areas.

I had asked Prof CNR Rao a father figure in solid state chemistry to persuade the government in correcting this error. He expressed his inability to stop the rot. One possible reason for this drift could be the absence of a role model which the young can aspire or emulate. But the media hype for Bill Gates/Narayan Murthy is so high that everyone unknowingly also have them as their role model.

 

[flamby]

Concur with arunmrao. In India, you need to be a computer guy to prove your mettle. Rest of us are losers and amongst us second citizens come Medical, Engineering, Commerce, Law, Humanities and Science guys in this order.

However, I differ in this that a role model or the government can alter the things. The trend in driven by rupees and dollars and it will continue till a high sector bursts into broke.

This is not unlikely, if we reflect on our past. Some 20 years back, engineering used to rule the roost and now it is in shambles after market started to churn out technical students dime a dozen. IT is following a very similar trend. Hence my answer to the original question is-- there is no point driving students to a subject or worry about students not taking a subject. Market will take care of itself as it has proven to do in past.

Ciao.

 

[Drej]

flamby - This view of global "respect" in engineering is generated by the general public - non-engineers, who know little or nothing about engineering. Engineering at a professional level is, and rightly, judged from within the technical/engineering community -- where opinions really matter and where people know what they're taking about. There should be no comparison made between the two. The reality is of course much different.


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