Ask for a raise 15

[dcceecy]

Our company has a salary freeze since April 2009. I came to this company in 2007 (did get 5% raise in 2008).

we do employee evaluation every year. Every time my boss said I have done an outstandig job and he was going to propose a raise for me. But he came back to me said that the big boss did not agree with the raise.

I am pretty sure the company did well last year (from the work load and bonus they gave to all employees). I also think they will pay more if they hire someone to replace me.

Does that mean I have to look for better paid jobs somewhere else?
Any comments?

Thanks.

 

[IRstuff]

The question is whether anyone else got a raise, and if so, why.

Companies often give bonuses in lieu of raises, specifically because it's not a permanent increase. Likewise, workload may mean that the company underbid and therefore does not have enough money for raises.

The scenario that fits either or both should tell yuo what's what.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[TheTick]

I was unwillingly thrust back into the job market this past April. It was all I could do to minimize a cut in salary. Still a buyer's market out there.

 

[ukengineer58]

Im in a similar position. Been at the company six years and had a couple of promotions. I have no doubt if they brought someone in theyd be on a lot more. Thats because companies only give relatively small raises for existing employees. If you want a big raise you need to move. Whether thats the right thing to do at the momet its hardvto say.

 

[jmw]

Some facts of life.

Each year management estimates how much money the company made in excess of what the spent.
Each manage has to forecast his next years costs for a variety of things and is concious that if he keeps his demands down some of the money he saves may come his way.
Similarly the directors will want to keep the shareholders happy because then they too will be able to pull down.
Your manager needs to know when he puts his budget proposals in which of his people is going to prove an awkward sod.
If for four years you have simply accepted no pay rise as the norm then he expects the same again this year.
Announcement of pay awards is way too late to start asking for or demand more money. He sure as hell isn't going to go back to management and ask for more money after they already spent the available budget on other things. It makes him look bad.
Especially if it turns out he misjudged you.

The usual time to do this is at your annual review when he gives you the BS about how good you are. This is when you have to hint/imply that you need some money this time around.
Afterwards is too late.

If your boss is going to tell you that your performed above average then he ought to go to bat for you.
But he won't unless forced to and you missed that chance. Now you have to finesse him into doing this of his own initiative after the event.

As often as not bosses will lavish praise instead of salary increases.
As often as not they will tell the same little lies to everyone about how times are hard, business is depressed, the markets are tough and how he went to bat for you, and only you, to try and get you something despite the current embargo on pay rises for anyone but that for whatever reason top management, while understanding, just wouldn't go for it.

If there was some money set aside for pay rises (usually a lump sum budget nominally shared out equally as an across the board rise) they will usually say that not everyone got a rise but by going out on a limb they did at least manage to get you a small award simply because of how well you worked. This is strictly conditional on your not telling anyone about it because then those that didn't get anything will cause all sorts of problems and how won't be able to repeat this next year.
You will only get even this pittance this if he thinks you are valuable to him AND there is a risk of you leaving.

This BS they feed everyone serves to do two things:
1) it makes everyone happy to accept a BS rise or nothing at all and you should be glad to have any job at all.
2) it makes everyone think that by working even harder they will do better next time.

It is surprising how many employees believe what management tell them. These guys could sell perpetual motion machines to physics professors.

Now, he may even have had some money to divvy up and he will not give it to everyone.

He will prioritize giving it to someone he thinks he might lose otherwise.
He may have a brown noser or two he needs to take care of.
But he simply won't squander what largesse he has on people who, no matter how good or bad they are or how "valuable" they are, he thinks they will (a) believe everything he tells them and suck it up and (b) look likely to live out their days working for the company come what may (or as near as he is going to get to this in today's world).

If he didn't give a rise but gave you the "I went to bat for you, and there are very few I would do that for, but I couldn't shift them." speech and you took it again just as you have for the last 4 years, coming back at him and asking/demanding a pay rise (or else) you will simply hit a brick wall and it may even frighten him into doing something stupid.

He may promise to "See what he can do" but the reality is he is going to use the time he buys to plan for your leaving or being canned.
What you have done is essentially make him think he made a misjudgement. He thought you were a safe bet for no rise and you now make him look like he misjudged you after he has already shared out what budget he had, if any. (If none it is probably because he didn't fight for a budget in the first place).
Managers don't like that. Because to keep you he really does have to ask top management for money over and above that budgeted.

On the other hand, you could ask for a one to one meeting "whenever you can find me 15 -20 minutes of quiet time"
"What's it about?"
"Oh, nothing urgent. I just need to take advantage of your experience and get your advice."
Make the request casual and be busy so you can terminate before he asks too many questions.

He will think that whatever you say, this is going to be about pay. SO he is going to rehearse more soft soap and be ready to pretend to go back to senior management etc etc.

But at the meeting (be sure to have a single sheet of paper with you and use it as an aid memoir which you can simply tear in half and bin in the room when the meeting is over as if it has served its purpose so he can sneak look and see what you hd written down.
You make the notes on this as rather/direct simple bullet points which will relate to much more carefully and neutrally phrased points you raise in discussion.
Pay is not mentioned nor is the idea of pursuing jobs elsewhere.

What you do is say you want his help and advice because you have been thinking about your future with the company. (It helps to suggest this is because your significant other is pressing your about advancement because significant others are the cause of much grief and always like more money).

You make sure you tell him that you enjoy working for the company, you are glad to have a good boss (even if, no especially if he is actually an idiot)and then you ask him what the prospects for career advancement and learning new skills to get as broad a based foundation for your future as possible within the department or the company as a whole (this makes him think you might want at some time to change departments) and you are not sure how realistic it is to expect to be able to advance much without you take on extra task that build new skills and if there is a chance the company might help in some way of you takes some external training etc.
And:
What does he advise? You would really appreciate his help and advice in this.

You need to make him think you are ambitious and that in the long run you obviously want to earn the big bucks.

The real objective is to make him think that you are even more valuable than he may think you are and make him believe all the BS he fed you at pay review time.

But the real objective is to get him to think that if he can't help you achieve your objectives (which should all be realistic but set a little beyond what he thinks the company can do) that you will go elsewhere to get that experience.

He has to believe the BS he fed you at pay review because he also has to belive/pursuade himself that if you go he will have a big hole in his department and a HR on his neck for increasing the employee turnover figures and making their life difficult by having to replace you. (On the other hand a frontal assault demanding money and suggesting you will go elsewhere, he will set about seeing how he can make your job superfluous, share out your responsibilities amongst the others and make some brownie points by cutting overheads by reducing his head count.)

You do all this in a brief non urgent meeting where he expects it to be about demanding a pay rise with menaces, and you wrong foot him by studiously avoiding pay as an issue (it is implicit in the quest for advancement and interest in your progress from your significant other etc) and building a foundation to advance, and by not mentioning shifting to any other companies.
You play up how you enjoy working there and for him and how you really think that this company can be where you really can achieve these things.

He will of course realise that your ambitions are more than the company can deliver on and he will for himself realise that at some point you will start to think about going else where.

But he has to want to keep you and he has to be the one to think you might leave.

He needs to frighten himself a bit.

Paradoxically, the way management solve these problems is to offer a bribe. A special pay rise wrung from management under entirely different terms. He will not ask for more money for you necessarily but may employ exactly the same tactics on upper management saying he has a really valuable employee and that he is concerned that he might lose him.
They will satisfy themselves it is ambition and your boss will assure them you are valuable and what can he do.
They may then ask if a little more money might help keep you while they see what can be done. If so, then you are home free and your boss will come to you and say how he called top managements bluff and demanded more money for you. He will promise to help further your career anyway he can.

He/they hope that if he throws some money at you, he can solve the short term problem.He will worry about yoru ambition later on when he has to.


You don't ask for money after the pay wards announcements and you don't threaten to go elsewhere.
Managers are well skilled at managing demands for more money and threats to go elsewhere.
Usually to your disadvantage.

On the other hand their solution to all other problems is to throw money at them - if it is their idea.

Of course, you have to reckon this may all fall on deaf ears.
You also should recognise that you will only get promises if you ask for more money and BS.
Threats to leave will only start them looking for your replacement straight away and then forcing you out when they find someone. And not necessarily at a higher price. They will simply farm some of your responsibility onto the other employees and employ someone less skilled to pick up the slack.
In tough times we have all be denied pay rises, seen redundancies on all sides and the survivors end up doing two peoples work for less than one persons salary.

So in any event you should be looking for a job elsewhere as insurance and because if this happens next year you will fall further and further behind the market and your take home pay will be devalued yet again.

Plus if your significant other is like most, no pay rise and a lack of progress will not go down well.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[JAE]

Someone had too much coffee this morning.

 

[Forensic74]

To the OP's question:

Yes, move on, because if it didnt bother you, you wouldn't be on here asking. Good companies will reward employees with raises and/or incentives. Plain and simple. You cannot force them to give you a raise, because if they're "that" type of company they'll probably blacklist you even though it's painfully obvious that they'll have to pay more for a replacement.

My last company didn't give a raise or bonus, oh wait they gave $200 in cash for Christmas, so I gave them a 2 week notice when I had a new job in hand. Done, and I got a $20k raise at the new firm. ...and at the exit interview the boss had the nerve to ask me if I felt underpaid.

 

[pmover]

jmw . . .

no offense, gave up reading your post . . .

dcceecy,
yeah, commence planning a move to a different pasture to graze in . . . too much crabgrass and lack of moisture in the pasture you are currently grazing in. someone is appealing to your senses . . .

good luck!
-pmover

 

[ctopher]

In this economy, not too many companies are giving raises.
They know that jobs are scarce and most people will stay at their current jobs raise or not.
US businesses thrive on greed.

Chris
SolidWorks 11
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ScottyUK]

Chris,

It depends on the industry. Even in the worst recession for 20 years the heavy electrical industry in the UK is buoyant as the inevitable effects of the under-recruitment during the 80's and 90's start to bite. There's a lot of competition, and companies are poaching from each other. Wages are rising at long last. It is a good time to be in my industry, and it's very welcome after the nightmarish employment conditions in this industry which existed when I left school.


----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[mtu1972]

JMW - Well said.

It's true that the confidentiality thing is their biggest hammer. In 2010 my company started off saying that the cost of living went down, so their will be no raises. Had they been to a grocery store, or a gas station? Oh, the CPI does not count food or fuel in their projections.

In 2011 we got raises and bonuses, but you still don't know how you did compared to everyone else. At Thanksgiving NBC stated that the meal cost 13% more than the previous year. It's representative of rising prices and a reminder that we are still behind the curve.

As stated above, the best chance for advancement is when changing jobs. When initiated by you, of course.

gjc

 

[dcceecy]

Thank you for your input.

The best choice is to find a job somewhere else.

my boss gives me work to do and decide my duties and responsibilities,
but someone else decides how much to pay me. it does not make sense. That may be the company is "smart" strategy at this economy. I have to work extra hours to get the job done to win the praise of "outstanding".

I understand "bonus is temporary not permanent". In this way, the company is stealing money from those underpaid hard workers. Because they gave everybody same bonus.

 

[bigTomHanks]

I think we need to get away from believing the corporations/businesses when they say that the economy is still bad. They took well advantage of the recession to make gains in their direction for many years now. They were able to clean fat and get maximum efficiency out of their work force due to the fear of one losing their job. Now that they have sold off old inventory and many areas of the economy have stabilized from the hole it was in the companies HAVE to start expanding. We need to realize that the ball is now in our court and will continue to be as the demand for skilled engineers/professionals increases. If you aren't happy with the line of crap they are feeding you then I strongly encourage you to let them know by finding another job. This will accomplish two thing:
1) It will fix your situation by allowing you to make more money and get out from under the situation that you are in.
2) It should improve the situation for the coworkers that you have left behind. Once the company realizes that talented people are leaving, they will either start listening to their work force or find themselves on the brink of failure.

 

[JAE]

I am a part owner of a small engineering firm. From our perspective we haven't been feeding our employees "a line of crap".

Most of the firm owners I know in my area were hard hit by this economic turn-down - we regrettably had to let some folks go - screwing up our long term strategic goals for the company - and also undermining our knowledge base of employees.

It is no fun to let your employees go. It sucks.

We cut back hours on our staff and took personal salary cuts to survive. If that is your idea of a line of crap - well, I guess you have a right to your opinion.

Are there some owners who take advantage - I would guess yes. But painting every firm, and every firm owner, with such a broad brush is incorrect.

The OP above is in a particular situation where the firm paid out bonuses but were reluctant to raise salaries. There is still a lot of uncertainty out there and also limited projects. This choice of theirs may make sense.

Each owner of a company has to weigh the risks of raising salaries (risking a bad financial cash flow and not making payroll down the road) with not raising salaries and risking losing good employees.

It is a very tough decision and requires a crystal ball.

And employees should weigh not only their salaries but also:
1. The work experience they get here vs. there.
2. The risk of loosing seniority at a new firm.
3. The loss of vacation/PTO time off - or the lower rate given to new hires.
4. The work environment here vs. there.
5. The impression jumping around to different jobs gives when pasted on your resume.
6. The fact that some firms hire in bad economies only to fill short term project needs - then out the door they go.

 

[jmw]

It is nice to know there are some oases of decency among Eng-Tips members.

But the sad truth is that far too many companies do fit the bill and often it seems to be the norm at some of the bigger companies.

One company I worked for we used to get a bonus, a good salary review, good opportunities for advancement and an Xmas hamper. It didn't last.

They did a management buyout.
(I've been through a couple of these along with all the mergers and acquisitions games). It's like monopoly. Making money the hard way by investing in R&D and selling stuff people want the majority of managers want to be high flyers and make their money buying and selling. That means making the company look good by cutting expenditures, which they can do, instead of growing sales which seemed beyond them. The usual victims are the employees.

In a £200M group (just under, so they couldn't attract the long term investors like the pension funds and had to make do with lots of get rich quick types), our group was coining money. But we still suffered cut backs, no pay rises year on year, redundancies so we could do two jobs for the price of one and all because our aerospace company was doing bad because the aerospace market was down. Our colleagues in aeropace didn't seem to be suffering the same way as us. Then a trade announcement informed us that aerospace had been sold for something like £53M. It also informed us that the money had been dispersed as dividends to the shareholders.
We got nothing.

We were privileged to watch a few more of these machinations before they finally managed to sell our divison to some mug company that thought the bit they were interested in was doing well. They didn't know it was another aerospace deal where the bit they wanted made no money at all and the bit they didn't want was bankrolling the whole deal.

SO even working for a part of the company that made good money did its employees no good.
And so when I make some sort of statement like " Times are hard and I really went to bat for you but the board wouldn't relent... blah blah" I am not making it up but simply quoting or paraphrasing the actual things I have been told down the years by a succession of bad managers in companies run by the sort of sharks who make lawyers look like party animals.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[rowingengineer]

Agree with JAE, we did basically the same as he did in the latest down turn however we have been lucky that we didn't lay anyone off, however a few people did leave due to personal reasons which helped. Most of the firms in my town have taken this stance and most of heavily reduce profits margins for the last few years. most have only just started handing out raises again this year however they were very small. They only firms I know of that did huge layoff's where the large over-sized firms.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[Gymmeh]

I worked at a place like what jmw is describing, and I currently work at a place like JAE is describing.

I can say my experience with a large corporate conglomerate was every similar the jmw, there were many layers of management which had structures that made raises more complicated, cold, and structured.

I currently work in a really small firm... 10 engineers and if you talk plainly and prove your worth to managmanet you get a better raise. Also, during layoffs one of the bosses cried cuz he had to let 3 people go... its a small pretty tight nit group.

Getting a raise is relative to your situation. In the large Corporate company i asked for a raise at review since i was such a "great worker" a month later the raise never came, they thought they were calling my bluff... I got a new job.

 

[KENAT]

Have you asked your boss what you need to do to advance/get a raise?

Not that you'll necessarily get the truth, or maybe the decision is made so far up the chain that even if you could turn water in wine (or maybe petroleum might be a better analogy for engineers) the message would be so corrupted by the Chinese whispers phenomenon that it still wouldn't sway senior management to approve a raise.

However, it is a way to at least flag it as an issue without appearing too combative/disgruntled.

Then you can continue your job search while employed and hopefully not being treated as a major flight risk.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[dcceecy]

My boss said it is just the salary freeze. The company just can not get enough profitable projects. (our group did very well though last year)

I'll look for companies who can get good projets.

I just feel sad for all the extra effort I have put on this job and I don't know if I could do that for the next job with 5 years older and family.

 

[jmw]

He would say that and "Yes" you can.

Seems you are experiencing what we all experience. The group does well and management play the "times are hard" card as if we are idiots.

Engineers do the job first, it seems, and then wonder later why they don't get the rewards just as you are now.
Whatever else, you should always do your job as best you can and get the maximum satisfaction for doing so.
That you can control.
You often can't even understand management and devoting your time to the politics of life is a tough but once you start to figure it out it gets a bit easier but not much.
Its just life.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com