Asked to lie. 4

[UTChemE]

Greetings all

I have been on my new job almost six months and yesterday I was shocked by my superviser when he asked me to lie and "cover his back" on some results received from some wells that I tested. To make a long story short, he threatened to "take me down with him if I told my superiors". Well, he doesn't know yet but I immediately reported this to my engineering manager and his attitude has also since soured towards me since I told him that I was not going to lose my integrity for him or no one else. My question is does anybody have any advice since I am new to the corporate world?

 

[Beggar]

My advice is to document everything and to be up-front about what's going on. My guess is that your supe's already got a well-earned reputation for dishonest, back-stabbing, CYA, unethical behavior and that you'll be vindicated.

The response of your manager is concerning, though. Did you really tell your manager that "...not going to lose my integrity for him or no one else?" Hard to say without being there but that might have come off as a bit threatening to him when (as I understand it), he never asked you to compromise yourself.

Be sure you follow all the policies and procedures to the "T." Don't expect any breaks from these chumps so be sure you don't need them.

It's a bit early for you to start looking for a new job but you might start investigating whether there are other opportunities within your company.

Depending on how things progress, consider going to your HR rep, another management type that you respect, or a mentor if you have one.

Take some pride in having done the right thing. Also know that if you'd "backed him up" and been found out, you'd almost certainly have been fired for perjuring yourself -- and rightly so.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

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[quark]

I have multiple answers for this single question. In my view, it is too hypothetical, if I say "Boy! You have done a good job, keep it up". There may come some situations in future when you have to lie for your own sake or you make ask one of your subordinates to do so.

My options will be

1. Don't lie if it leads to a fatal incident.
2. Don't lie if losses are higher comparitively or irrecoverable.
3. Need not lie if your boss's boss is good to you.

I advise you not to be too sentimental in your job. Atleast, you should not be shocked when somebody asks you to tell a lie. Take it in a cool way and then decide.

Freedom is not worth having if it doesn't include the freedom of making mistakes - Mahatma Gandhi

Finally, don't take all these things for granted and use your own judgement.

Regards,

 

[PSE]

I agree with Beggar (star). Falsifying information is wrong. Withholding information can fall in a grey area depending upon the information type and who the information is being imparted to. In this circumstance, I would be doing what Beggar has outlined.

Regards

 

[TheTick]

A long, hard, lightly-travelled road awaits you if you maintain this etic. I wish you the best. The world needs more like you.

 

[ornerynorsk]

You did the right thing. After all, where do you stop if you begin compromising your own integrity? Best of luck to you.

 

[plasgears]

I was in a situation recently where I took my boss down with me. It's the reverse of the statement made earlier.

The character in question was an engineering mgr without engineering credentials. His immed staff was made up of two HS grad cronies of questionable background. He was disrespectful of my analyses and professional opinions. This, by the way, was a QS9000 qualified operation.

A product line for a luxury model car was going to hell with numerous field failures after years of trouble free service. I put my finger on it; inferior material from a source that I suspected of using 100% commodity regrind in a highly stressed part. Our drawings specified 10% max regrind.

Upon receiving notice, I informed the top boss, and the predictable happened. Up to this time the eng'g mgr was the fair haired boy of the top boss.

 

[MikeHalloran]

The problem with a statement like "Don't lie if..." is that you may not, and probably don't, know enough to evaluate the consequences accurately.


The only morally and professionally defensible tactic is "Don't lie."




Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

Keep your resume updated. As the others have said, you did the right thing - but one right in a viper's nest full of wrongdoers will quickly find himself pushed out. A sad fact and goes against everything that Mommy and Barney and Sesame Street taught us about honesty. Real incentive to keep adhering to your morals :-B Don't ever throw in the towel, though - sticking to our guns is what we're trained and paid to do. Its why the ethics forum is here, so we can talk to other rightdoers and not feel so alone.

Don't know what the deal is with your engineering manager but it doesn't 'feel' right. Possibly he's sour because "nobody likes a tattletale" - lots of conflicting attitudes in the business world, very confusing and discouraging. There are still companies and managers who value honesty, though - hard to find but worth the effort, life is a lot happier when you aren't always watching your back.

(Good grief, did I just say Barney up there?!? Ugh, somebody stuff me full of sushi and drown me in Coke, please? >.< )


"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[HVAC68]

Well, you did the right thing, no doubt. But, as somebody suggested, update and keep your resume ready. One more question - not to offend you in anyway - have you ever lied before, even if it's a small one ? Or have you hidden any information or asked somebody else to lie earlier ? If yes, then, the situation becomes more complicated, if it's found out - you are also guilty.

You are not guilty unless you are caught !!!

There are not many people who work to their conscience and this breed of people is fast disappearing from the world. Good to know somebody like that is around. Not sure what that would mean to your present career, but, I'm sure I would do the same thing, if ever I were to face such a situation.

HVAC68

 

[MedicineEng]

I don't know the degree of the lie, but if one chooses that path has to be aware that one day might have two gentlemen entering his office and kindly say: "You are under arrest".

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Don't lie. Use some tact in informing superiors. Stick to your guns. You may not become the richest guy in the world in terms of money, but your integrity is priceless.

 

[TheTick]

My company specializes in metal-forming. Our sales department specializes in truth-forming.

I supply the straight truth. I leave it to others to bend it.

If your boss wants to lie, he shouldn't involve you in it. Let that lazy rat make his own forgeries!

BTW, are these wells for drinking water? I certainly wouldn't stand by idly if anyone's life or health was at stake.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.

http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

-SolidWorks API VB programming help

 

[Maui]

Document EVERYTHING that was said between yourself and your boss, including the time, date, location, and any witnesses that were present or nearby. Keep a copy of this documentation at work, and an additional copy in a location away from work. Do the same for your conversation with the engineering manager. You never know what the actual relationship may be between the higher-ups, and they may just decide to make you the sacrificial lamb if things are going to turn sour because of your refusal to "play ball". Copies of any documentation involving the measurements that you made should also be kept in a secure location. Your integrity has not been compromised due to the choice that you made, and you should be commended for this. But there will be a price to pay for making that decision. Be prepared for the worst, and hope for the best outcome.


Maui

 

[hydrae]

If thoose wells are for drinking water...
Can you reperform the test? and get the same results?
The agency with the government for compliance may be interested in your results, through a tip line they may do their own random check of the test you performed that had less than optimal results...
When two layers of management want you to lie, leave, soon.
Ask yourself, what other skeletons are in their closet???
Hydrae

 

[ruggedscot]

I guess with this one you have literally taken the pin out of the grenade... It will go any time but you just dont know when it will.

Build up your evidence time date that sort of thing - keep to the right and ensure that you have no worries behind you when someone is struggling to maintain a job they will do anything - never get close to a drowning man as he will take you down with him.

Its a sad place to be - integrity is something dear and to let someone take that away just means that you have sunk to their level. What about talking to the client ? what about going higher up ? any way to limit the damage that you face ?

Rugged

 

[EddyC]

You are relatively new to the firm where you are employed. You may not yet be aware of their corporate culture. Many employers are willing to compromise principles when money is at stake. There may be bigger issues going on than what you are aware of. It looks as if your boss's boss is involved as well with the problem that you mentioned. And it appears that he is not sympathetic to your view. I suggest that you begin looking for another job. From my point of view, if I had to rat out every unethical act that I observed at work, I wouldn't be employable at any company. I don't care what my employer does as long as they don't involve me in it. I wasn't this cynical when I began my career 20 years ago, but I've had to endure too much over the years.

 

[ruggedscot]

So then you turn a blind eye - if you were to rat out every unethical act ? Wow heavy stuff and I guess as they say nothing is in black or white its all murky.

Principles are what makes the man - if you are willing to let go then you have lost the game. nothing is ever worth that sort of comprimise.

Ive been there Ive seen things that shouldnt have occurred - people have tired to make me do things that would have been against principles. Falsifying records - missing certain tests just to get through paper works quickly ? Sorry but that was something that I baulked at and something that made me wary of any situation where you are sucked into a web of lies and deciept.

I dont care what my employer does as long as the dont involve me in it. That sort of statement comes from someone jaded and I guess peeved off at work.

Rugged

 

[EddyC]

ruggedscot,

I appreciate your point of view regarding ethics. I want to go on record as saying that I personally don't engage in unethical work behavior, my employer does. I have also conferred with a couple of trusted fellow engineers regarding what I am observing. They too stated that their work experiences were similar. They too kept their mouths shut about things they observed to anyone outside their office. They waited until the time was right to jettison those particular employers. Thats pretty much what I plan to do when the time is right. Right now, I need a job bad. If I had the power I not only would revoke my superiors' licenses, I would throw them in jail. Unfortunately the problem involves the client as well. This may sound far fetched, but our client is one of the largest companies in the world, with a lot of influence in our government. They are fully involved in the unethical behavior that I am observing. I also don't believe that the state boards are going to take the word of someone who says something is going to happen in the future. I think they will only do something only AFTER it happens. For my part, I try to do my designs the best that I can, within the work environment that I find myself. The last thing that I want is for someone to come after me because I took a short cut.

 

[ruggedscot]

This is what happens when people lie down - can you imagine the number of people that have just given up to let it get to this stage ? The we will wait till something happens and then say something - that makes you etically just as bad as the company. If you saw someone getting murdered would you just ignore it until the police caught the guy and then say something ? i think not. This is what is wrong with business today - people get too used to sweeping things under the floor and just letting it go for fear of their job - for fear of being seen as being the bad guy. Guess this is a crazy notion really just to be either black or white, rather than murky grey.
In a previous job I was taksed with doing checks on electrical integrity - the number that needed doing was huge - an army camp out in the Balkans. Each and every living accom block had to be checked that it was safe - polarity and earth bonding that sort of thing. Now the company started to ramp up what it wanted done as a normal day to the point that the only way that you could achieve this turnaround would be to lie and falsify. I didnt and this grated the management. Why do we allow ourselves to be taken in with this - to assist and contribute ?

The law classes this as a contributory factor and thus makes you liable. I know Id prefer to have a clean slate if I went for a job rather than one that had me down as someone that would get involved with wrong doings.

Rugged