ASME SEC VIIIVDIV.2 6

[abhimech1991]

Hello,
Can anybody help regarding below questions.
What is the experience and qualification required for to perform design activity ASME SEC VIII DIV.2 vessel?
As per 2-J.3.3 designer shall as a minimum hold the qualification minimum of
4 yr of experience in pressure vessel design. My question is 4 years experience in design of Div.2 pressure vessel?
Actually I had a 10 years of experience in Div.1 pressure vessel and heat exchanger.
Am I eligible as DESIGNER to face the ASME AUDIT for DIV.2 certification?

 

[TGS4]

There is no requirement in 2-J.3.3(a)(1) that the experience be in ASME Section VIII, Division 2.

 

[r6155]

The engineer must have experience in design, fabrication and inspection. It is not admissible to make calculations in the office and never see how a cylindrical sector is rolled, how a connection is welded, liquid penetrant tested, hydraulic tests, etc., among other things.

Regards

 

[TGS4]

r6155 - that may be your opinion, but that is not a requirement in the Code. You are welcome to provide your input to the Code Committees, however.

 

[r6155]

@ TGS4
ASME VIII Div.2 is clear to me.
The designer is responsible for complying with Code rules and demonstrating compliance with Code equations when such equations are mandatory

1-B.2.9 Certifying Engineer – an engineer or other technically competent professional duly accredited and qualified to practice engineering as required by this Division

1-B.2.14 Designer – an individual who is qualified to design pressure vessels in accordance with the rules of this Division by demonstrated knowledge in Code requirements and proficiency in selecting correct design formulas and appropriate values to be used when preparing the design of a pressure vessel.

“Code rules” or “knowledge in Code requirements” include experience in fabrication and inspection

ASME B31.3 is more clear in the scope of work of designer.

Regards

 

[DriveMeNuts]

r6155,
The words “knowledge in Code requirements” provides its own definition. It refers to "knowledge" from reading the code, not "experience" at a workshop.

There are designers and certifying vessels engineers who are Chartered Mechanical Engineers working for large corporate organisations who have never been to a fabrication workshop or installation site. They are purely technical.

You are expressing an opinion.

 

[r6155]

Sorry, I disagree

Scope of work and duties for DESIGNERS require experience in fabrication and inspection. The following are some of them in ASME B31.3 - Same conditions are required in ASME VIII Div 2, but is not sufficient clear description for some people.

DESIGNER shall provide to the owner details and calculations demonstrating that design, construction, examination, and testing are consistent with the design criteria of this Code

341.3.3 Defective Components and Workmanship.
Defects (imperfections of a type or magnitude not acceptable by the criteria specified in para. 341.3.2) shall be repaired, or the defective item or work shall be replaced. Discontinuities detected outside the area required to beexamined during weld joint examinations should be evaluated and resolved in a manner acceptable to the owner and DESIGNER.

See more in ASME B31.3, B31.1......etc, etc.

Sorry again
Regards

 

[jmec87]

The B31.3 requirements are very simple and very clearly do not require experience in anything other than design. B31.3 Section 301.1 defines the requirements for qualifications of the designer.

 

[r6155]

@ jmec87
I understand that you are not in conditions to evaluate discontinuities as stated in 341.3.3. Right?

Regards

 

[TGS4]

r6155 - again, my personal opinion is that you would be incorrect. Having sat at the committee table when the rules in 2-J were written, I can share that "experience in fabrication and inspection" was never a consideration as a Code requirement for a designer or a certifying engineer. While I may agree with you (and others at the Code Committees also had the same opinion) that experience in those aspects certainly makes for a better certifying engineer or designer, the specific decision was made to NOT include those in the Code rules. The rules are as-written very deliberately, and it would be incorrect to read anything else into the words, other than what is written.

Nevertheless, if you want an interpretation from ASME, there is a procedure to do so. And if you believe that the rules, as written, are incorrect, then there is a mechanism in-place to change the rules. As a member of the pressure vessel engineering community, you should be getting involved, being as you are so passionate about this. There is an Argentina International Working Group of Section VIII - if you would like the contact information of that group, please let me know and I would be happy to share it.

 

[jmec87]

@ jmec87
I understand that you are not in conditions to evaluate discontinuities as stated in 341.3.3. Right?

As stated by TGS4, "experience in those aspects certainly makes for a better certifying engineer or designer", but there is no requirement in B31.3 for the designer to have experience specifically in that area. I agree with TGS4 that "The rules are as-written very deliberately, and it would be incorrect to read anything else into the words, other than what is written."

 

[DriveMeNuts]

Most designers don't have the experience or skill to evaluate a defect outside the examination zone and there is often no need for them to even evaluate it.
The designer with no experience or skill in the area simply needs to say "fix it".
If that is not possible, then the "acceptable manner" used by the designer and owner to evaluate the defect would be to seek expert advice.

 

[r6155]

I consider, for example, that the procedure for tensioning the 100mm diameter bolt, or the procedure for leak testing is within the scope of the designer's work.
If not, who should do it?

Regards.

 

[DriveMeNuts]

These sorts of procedures are contained within companies internal specs. The upkeep of these specs is the responsibility of the design manager, not the designer. When these specs are revised, the design manager consults with the workshop to make sure that they work in the real world.
The purpose of the specs to convert the practical into technical so that the designer doesn't get bogged down with practical details (these are for the tradespeople to deal with). Within these internal specs there may be "technical" options which the designer has to specify which don't require workshop experience.

Occasionally there are situations which are not covered in a spec. The designer then works with the design manager and workshop experts to find a solution, which may end up in the internal spec as a technical requirement. It is during these events that the designer develops practical awareness, making them a better Engineer, however this awareness is not a required necessity to be a designer.

 

[r6155]

@ DriveMeNuts
Agree.
I am used to everything related to design (pressure vessel in my case) I have to know. It was always very well accepted by my clients and I achieved good financial results.
Regards

 

[XL83NL]

r, all good arguments and it’s nice to make a penny out of it as well, but that’s irrelevant here.

It seems that when your professional opinion is not in agreement with Code requirements, you’re not able to admit you were wrong. What’s holding you back?

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[r6155]

@ XL83NL
My "agree" not change my opinion about designer, is only a consensus.

I don't see any help from you in this matter. Where is your ethics?

Many believe that by doing the calculations on a computer they are designers. They are “calculation engineer”. A designer is something far superior.

"Welcome to the painful wonderful world of EN 13445. The code with so many 0 mistakes" (you said on 26 jan 21,

https://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=478571)

Then, you must accept the following:
EN 764-1
3.5.1
designer
Individual or organization that performs design of pressure equipment or components complying with the requirements of the relevant product standard
Note 1 to entry: The designer determines the shape, dimensions and thicknesses of the pressure components, selects the materials and details the methods of construction and testing.

There are many interpretations about "DESIGNER" in asme.org

Regards