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ASME stamping for boilers outside USA

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athomas236

Mechanical
Jul 1, 2002
607
We are involved in a power project in south east Asia and the contractor is proposing that the boilers should not be stamped with the ASME stamp but should be designed and manufactured with QA systems certified in accordance with ISO9001.

I understand that for the boiler to be stamped certain aspects of the design and manufacture have to be verified as being in accordance with the ASME code by an authorised inspector(AI) and that the AI has to be qualified by examination in the USA or Canada.

As I understand ISO9001, it requires the manufacturer to have a QA system that does things like ensuring that the approved weld procedures are used, that the welders are properly qualified etc with records maintained that this has been done. In other words, the manufacturer "self-certifies" the boiler without the involvement of any other except when the ISO9001 approval is renewed. To me this means that the day to day working of the QA system may be less than perfect.

The boiler manufacturer is authorised to use the ASME stamp and I suspect that his reluctance to stamp the boiler is n issue of cost.

As an alternative to ASME stamping versus ISO9001 I have thought of having an independent 3rd party inspector (such as Lloyds or TUV) that would carry out the same role as the ASME AI but would not be an ASME AI. This would provide independent certification without the cost of an AI but would mean that we would still not be able to stamp the boiler.

Any comments on any of the above would be appreciated.

athomas236



 
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athomas236;
What is the view of the project owner and what do the contract documents require for this project? I don't understand how the cost of an AI would tip the project toward not having to Code stamp the boiler. I believe there is much more to this story......
 
ISO 9001 has no basis for design and manufacture or assembly of boilers. ISO 9001 provides a basis for a Corporate , Customer focused, Quality System only. Your manufacturer is not being truthfull. If the manufacturer has an "S" Certificate of Authorization, it must have an approved ASME Code Quality Manual, which would be part of its total ISO 9001 quality system. I suspect that the manufacturer did not involve its Authorized Inspector as required under ASME I and its Code Quality Manual or substantial nonconformances have been found by the Inspector.

Depending on the requirements of the Nation/State/City where the boiler is installed, boilers can be designed and manufactured to ASME Section I but without stamping. If permitted and if you believe in the integrity of this manufacturer you may do the same and use a Third Party Inspection Agency such as Lloyds or TUV to provide the same services that an National Board certified AI would.

 
metengr,

The first meeting with the Owner is next week and the Owner is asking for our opinion before the meeting and before we have seen any documentation. As far as I know there is no contract yet.

Believe me if the potential contractor does not want an AI he will make a story that will give the impression that the costs will be prohibitive. Have seen it before. Trouble is that although ASME I claims to be an international code, it is still dominated by US practise.

stanweld,

I worked in the country involved back in 1996 and there was a statutory inspector but they were swayed in all decisions by their own commercial interests. Amazing what a new mercedes will do.

Best regards for the info

athomas236
 
If the location and project does not require or does not recognise ASME, then you don't need the ASME stamp.

If this is the case, and it is per the rules and regulations of the jurisdiction, then it is what it is.

Is this the case with you?

If not, and the jurisdiction requires ASME stamp, then there is no alternate - you need the ASME stamp.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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athomas236,
It appears that your Contractor has an "A" Certificate but is proposing a lower price if he does not use it but follows"??" all the rules set forth in ASME Section I and B31.1 for Boiler External Piping. You and the Owner must consider the benefit of the Code stamp versus price. Having said that, the Owner is a fool if he does not employ or through you employ a third party inspector from Lloyds, TUV etc. to assure that work and inspection/testing thereof fully conforms to the Design Code.

 
Here are my inernal company notes for your interest. Names of specific projects have been deleted for obvious reasons.

athomas236

QUOTE
ASME stamp versus ISO9001

1. ASME Code requirements

In accordance with ASME Section I it is a mandatory requirement that power boilers are stamped with the ASME stamp by the manufacturer. It is also a mandatory requirement that the manufacturer enters in to a contract with an ASME accredited inspection company who then appoints an inspector as the Authorised Inspector (AI). This AI shall have been qualified by written examination in the USA or Canada.

The function of the AI are in simply terms to verify that the manufacturer stamping the boiler has the appropriate authorisation, to verify that the design calculations are in accordance with the Code and that the manufacture, erection and testing are in accordance with ASME. The AI also witnesses the stamping and signs the data form confirming that the boiler is in accordance with ASME. Without the involvement of the AI, the boiler cannot be stamped as being in accordance with ASME.

This approach is that practised in the USA and Canada and represents the most comprehensive method of ensuring that the boiler complies with ASME.

Traditionally, we have adopted a slightly different approach which involves a third party inspector such as Lloyds or TUV to verify that the boiler is in accordance with the code whether this was ASME or some other code. This approach was adopted on the ??? project where the boiler code was TRD and ??? where the code was ASME. However, for projects where the code was ASME and the inspector was not qualified by ASME the boiler was not stamped. This alternative approach has been adopted because of the alleged high costs of using an ASME qualified inspector for boilers in accordance with the ASME code.

In recent years we have, however, specified that boilers shall be in accordance with ASME and should be stamped. This approach stems from the philosophy that if a Code is being used then the whole of that Code should be used and the opinion that ASME boilers are conservatively designed. On some projects, manufacturers have accepted this philosophy without complaint (???) but on a recent project (???) the Developer refused to accept this approach because of complaints from the manufacturer about costs and even refused to accept third party inspections. The Developer was forced to reverse his decision at a later date by the ultimate client.

2 ISO9001

ISO9001 is a standard covering the requirements of a quality management system which is basically a paper system for ensuring and recording matters such as qualified weld procedures and welders and NDE procedures are used. It does not necessarily ensure that quality of welding complies with the ASME Code which is the key difference between quality assurance and quality control. However, much will depend on the actual detail of the QA system.

The use of ISO9001 also means that the manufacturer himself certifies that the boiler is in accordance with the Code. There is no involvement of an independent third party that verifies that the boiler complies with the Code.

The acceptability of this approach depends upon the Owner's confidence in the abilities of the manufacturer. To the best of my knowledge, we have not adopted this approach on any our projects.

An alternative to the above is to use an external company to audit the manufacturer's QA system before and during manufacture to, at least ensure that the QA system is being fully implemented.

3. Concluding remarks

As a company we would not accept the use of ISO9001, either alone or with external audits and it is expected that Lender's Engineers and Insurers would adopt a similar approach, no matter who manufactures the boiler. As a minimum for boilers in accordance with ASME, we would press for the appointment of a third party inspector but would prefer the boiler to have the ASME stamp. The key issue is, of course, the use of independent third party inspectors for quality control.

In any consideration of ASME stamping, the views of any statutory inspectorate should be considered. Having worked on the Muara Kurang project on site, it is my understanding that there is a statutory inspector in the jurisdiction of this project.
UNQUOTE
 
athomas236,

You got it. ASME certifies that the work is done to a certain set of criteria, and that the workers are certified to do the work. ISO certifies that the work is done according to the rules of the company, and that all the paper work is in place.

The comparison is - do you want a good quality product, or a product of a good quality system?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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It has been my unfortunate experience to learn the hard way that ISO9001 is nothing more that a paper file in storage cabinet with a slot to file my complaint for evermore.

 
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your useful advice.

athomas236
 
Let me focus issue from an European point of view.

ISO 9001 is a quality standard and is valid for manufacturing pressure vessels but also shoes or wine.
ASME is an American Standard for pressure vessels, but nothing more than a standard. It's no rule outside US unless otherwise stated by local authorities.

First point in the approach to manufacturing vessels is local regulations. Nowadays most of then ask for conformance with standards but in the past they were more locally specific.

Second point are standards. Some countries ask for compliment with their own standars, usually countries with a well stablish technical tradition and internationally recognized (US, Germany). Other countries have their own standards but they allows the use of foreign ones internatinally recognized (I am not sure if they allow foreign ones because nobody use own's or nobody use owns because foreing ones are allowed).
Nowadays the term internationally recognized is been changed for "equivalent overall level of safety” and standards are becoming more international (EN and ISO standards). ASME may be not rule in that country or even not to be allowed or only with extra work.

Third point is who is competent for inspection and certification (AI). In the past every country had their own inspectors in a governmental department or approved inspection companies. Nowadays every country approves and controls his own Notified Bodies, but all are authorized as Inspection Bodies. May be a company with ASME authorized inspectors is allowed to stamp but may be not allowed for legal manufacturing in that country.

Finally, fourth point is how a pressure vessel conformity is assessed. Obviously it depends on law, standards, authorizations, quantities produced, level of hazards, etc.
For low hazard level equipment manufacture may be competent and ISO 9001 may be a good quality control system but It's a standard for all activities and departments in the company. For a small company may be a high cost standard without a higher level of quality in the manufactured equipments because it only is focused in management system. In the other way manufacturer may focus on the quality of product.
For a higher hazard level equipment both ways exist but I would not trust in a system only controlled by manufacturer. Design, Procedures and personnel must be approved by independent parties.

As an example, manufacture for European countries requires compliment with european Directive. Harmonized standards are preferred but ASME is permitted too with extra work. No ASME stamp is required and Inspectors don't need to be ASME approved, but they must work for a Notified Body. For higher risk equipment manufacturer is allowed to choose between three ways;
1 design, manufacture and testing approval by Notified Body
2 design, manufacture and testing approval by NB on the first equipment and then a quality system approved and controled by NB with periodic visits or a one by one testing by NB for next equipment.
3 design and a whole quality system approved for NB with periodic visits for surveillance.
Obviously second and third way is for vessels manufactured in bigger series. The way for an only equipment is the first.
In no way an ISO 9001 alone allows manufacturing pressure equipments.




Regards from Barcelona
G. García
 
What makes you think a Lloyds or TUV inspection process would be cheaper than using an AI?
 
Only because that is what I have been told. Training a Lloyds inspector to satisfy ASME requirements is said to be expensive and is reflected in their charges.


athomas236
 
athomas236
then go to hartford!

Think of ASME as the minimum requirement,
means better construction should be accomplished.

The owner of a power plant should protect the investment and to consider lower maintenance expenses and plant longevity when built to a construction Code.
ONE bad weld in a steam pipe can cost tens of millions of Dlls.

It is my undrestanding that you need to have an ASME or other Code cert before obtaining the ISO
so the Contractor should have the S/A Stamp and want to bid low by invoking ISO which if it uses it w/o the Stamp: has no value,

genb

 
Mr. Garcia, thanks for the comments. There is one other difference in the rules used for design and construction. In the US the stadards and specifications groups are made up of producers and users working together. In many other parts of the world the rules are written by officials that are not part of the industry.

Atomas, Let's look at this another way. The fabricator is saying that they are will to build a boiler desinged to the code, build it accoring to the rules of the code, test it according to the code, but they don't want it inspected to the code.

The inspection is a minor cost, and it is your only way to assure that it was actually built right. Who is responsable to assure that this equipment works correctly?

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