AWS Prequalified WPS - test position inquiry 3

[wapiii]

I wrote an AWS Prequalified WPS (AWS D1.1-2015) for shielded metal arc welding P1 groups I and II to P1 groups I and II. We conduct the test on A36 with steel backing. All positions: 3G-V & 4G. Electrodes: E7018 3/32 and 1/8" diameters. I have a client that wants me to test 2-3 welders in 3G/4G positions but, wants to know if I can test 3-4 welders in 3G only and 3-4 welders in the flat position only. My question is: Can I test the welders in 3G only and 1G only without having to write a new WPS for the 3G/1G test position or, simply give them a WPQR in the position they test ?

 

[nkvon]

It depend on actual fabricate if don't need Overhead(OV) position. You mention flat position only you could qualify welder 1G

 

[gtaw]

There are no P numbers in AWS D1.1.

The prequalified WPS can list "all positions."

Best regards - Al

 

[DekDee]

wapiii,
Why do we have WPS's ?
To assist the welder/s with sufficient information to perform sound welds.
The difference in amps/volts/travel speed (and possibly electrode diameter) between 3G & 1G positions is significant.
If you have 1 x WPS to cover all positions you will have to list a very wide range of parameters that will not benefit anyone.
They are pre-qualified WPS's - you do not have to perform testing so why not just write WPS's for 3G, 1G & probably 4G as well ?
Regards,
Shane

 

[gtaw]

Why write several WPSs when one will suffice?

This WPS will be used for one purpose; qualifying welders using SMAW with one type of electrode: 7018. The test is specific; plate. The amperage range doesn’t vary appreciable regardless of position.

With over 40 years of welding, once the amperage is set, I rarely changed the current as the position changed. If I altered the current it was because the electrode diameter was changed.

Where possible, I tend to reduce the number of WPSs to minimize the opportunity for confusion and the amount of paperwork that has to be controlled and carried by the welder.

Just an opinion and thought process.


Best regards - Al

 

[wapiii]

Thank you to all responding to my question. I've been asked this question a lot as of late pertaining to "position tested". My old school thought was, if I'm going to take a weld test, why take one with self imposed limits ? AWS D1.1 Code visual acceptance criteria generally, doesn't change according to thickness or position so, why take a limited position or limited thickness test only to perhaps be called upon to weld out of position on say a 2" thick machine base for example. I recognize there is a need for WPS's for specific applications in shops that weld specialized parts or ancillary equipment that can or must be welded in say, the flat position only. so, I get that. I feel what I'm running into lately is a couple of schools and a couple of shops that don't feel their welders can pass an out of position test, that seems to be what they are telling me in my first discussions with them without them being perfectly candid. I feel like it is a matter of lack of proper training by at least a couple of these institutions. Again, thank all of you so much for making my first post in this forum a pleasant one. I hope it stays this way. I've read other forums (not this one) that attack people's integrity and questions simply because they feel the "poster" should already know the answer to his question. When I taught students at a Technical Center in past years one of the first things I said to them on the first day is this - I am not the best instructor you will ever encounter, because he or she does not exist ! If someone tells you that, run, get your money back ! They asked me why I would say that about myself. I replied, because it's true. A person would have to be a thousand years old to even begin to know all there is to know about the art of welding. Sorry about the long thank you, I'm just a guy that loves this art.

 

[DekDee]

Al,
I was going to edit my post but never got around to it.
I should have stated 1 x WPS would be perfectly acceptable as long as the parameters for all 4 x positions and diameters were noted.
I personally did not agree with giving a 3G/4G WPS to a welder and asking him/her to weld 1G with it.
Vertical up is "usually" welded with less amps than flat and this is reflected in electrode manufacturers recommended parameters.
What I hate seeing is a WPS written with "all positions" for a given electrode size with as an example 100 to 160 amps noted.
What is to stop a welder from welding flat at 100 amps or another weld vertical up at 160 amps ?

The point I was trying to make was the more detailed information given to the welder will hopefully result in a better weld,
Cheers,
Shane

 

[gtaw]

That's why clients hire welding consultants to help them with welding issues, whether it is to qualify welders, develop welding procedures, or streamline a production process. The consultant would not be providing proper services to the client if they believed one shoe fits all. The consultant has to consider what is being requested, what is required, and any particular conditions or circumstances that may pertain to the particular client.

There are situation where it makes sense to write a specific WPS for a specific part, welded with a specific machine, welded in a specific position. A widget that is going to be produced by the dozens or thousands is just such a case. In other cases where the client is welding one or two parts that are similar but of limited quantity may be better served to have a general WPS that can be applied to many applications and is not overly specific. A good example is a WPS used by a steel fabricated that produces many steel components that have only one common feature, all the welds are fillet welds.

I lean heavily on my experiences as a welder when I consider what will best meet the needs of the client. In this case the welding involved a grooved plate that is either 3/8 inch or 1 inch thick. The only difference is the test position. Is a WPS for each welding position justified? As I noted, once I set my amperage for a certain diameter electrode it is unlikely I would change the current when changing position. I'm not saying that all welders use the same setting for all positions, but I have not seen the welders change the current setting by large values when changing from one position to another while welding structural shapes.

I can't say the same is the case when welding pipe. Then again, I would not expect the welder to use the same parameters for welding an open root pipe joint as he would use to weld a plate with backing. Typically the open root is deposited with low amperage, the second bead with a higher current (they don't call it a "hot pass" for nothing). Even in that case I would most likely list the expected amperage range for root bead, a separate range for the "hot pass" and possibly the remaining intermediate beads on the same WPS. Rarely do I see pipe welders readjusting their current as they move from the overhead position to the vertical to the horizontal while depositing a particular bead.

Each of us have different experiences and we apply that experience when helping our clients. Does that mean it's "our way or the highway"? I don't believe so. There are several ways to approach a problem. The goal is to optimize the probability of success by the people that have to implement or use the solution we provide. I am not of the opinion that multiple WPSs are wrong or that one WPS covering all aspects of welding is correct. I believe we have to consider the end user when coming up with a solution to a problem. I am a believer that the less paperwork handed to the welder the better. The welder is more likely to read and follow one or two pages than he is to read and follow twenty pages. Anything that reduces the volume of paperwork is usually a good thing.

Best regards - Al