Bait and switch? (GE internship position) 5

[pdmorris]

I'm a Mechanical Engineering Masters student with a background in mechatronics and embedded systems. During the fall, I pursued a number of internship positions and in October received an offer from General Electric Consumer & Industrial in Louisville, Kentucky. Along with this, I was given contact information for the internship program administrator at GE C&I. She is the person with whom I've been communicating throughout the process. (The fact that she probably does not participate in the hiring / job selection process for interns may be relevant.)

Upon receiving the offer, I contacted her and requested a job description for the position I was being offered. The description I received was for "Industrial Systems in Louisville" and mentioned testing electrical equipment and writing software for motor control as typical jobs. It also stated that "roles could be more hardware or software depending on the match of candidate to job via the resume or shown interest."

Based on this description, I accepted the position. Approximately two weeks after I signed the offer letter, however, I received an email stating that there was no work in Industrial Systems in Louisville for persons with Mechanical Engineering degrees, so I'd now have to choose between two other jobs, one working with Appliances in Louisville and the other with Industrial Systems in Plainville, Connecticut. Rather than complain about the company changing my job offer after it had already been accepted, I simply asked for descriptions of each of the new jobs so that I could decide between them. I was told that the position in Louisville would be working with appliances and that in Plainville would be working with circuit breakers, but otherwise the previous job description would still apply. This struck me as odd as, for instance, motor control would not factor into circuit breaker design. When I prodded my contact somewhat about this inconsistency (perhaps "prodded" is the wrong word as I've been very polite throughout the whole process), she admitted to me that she didn't know anything about the jobs and was just passing on the information she had been given.


Because I had already begun preparations to live in Louisville for a few months, I told her I'd prefer that position. Although I expected my job would deviate somewhat from the description I had been given, I assumed it would still be something in which I had an interest and saw value for my career development. Yesterday, I received my official position assignment: I will be doing Cost Out for the Cleaning Products team, for which I will need "good communication skills," "good time management skills," and "intermediate Microsoft Excel skills."

Suffice it to say, I am devastated. I'm 28 years old and three credits away from receiving a Masters degree (with a very high GPA, mind you). I feel as if I've re-arranged my life, delayed my graduation by several months (that discussion here:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=192028&page=11),

and will be leaving my wife for 19 weeks so that I can do a job for which I was probably qualified in high school ("intermediate Microsoft Excel skills?!") I also feel completely betrayed.

My question for the board is this: what would you do in my situation? Do I have a right to demand a position more in line with the description I was given earlier? What, then, should I do if they refuse? Or should I just stop complaining and accept the opportunity I've been given? Also, for those of you who have participated in internship / co-op programs, is this typical? Was I naive to expect something better, even for a Masters student? For those of you familiar with Cost Out, is there enough value in this job from a career development perspective that I should be happy to have it?

Please advise.

 

[GregLocock]

Well, let's see.

I spent 6 very long weeks in industrial engineering adding up the minutes it took to build a car. They asked me to stay on. Perhaps my maths skillz were appreciated.

I spent 13 weeks in Finance, probably the highlight of which was walking around the plant trying to locate all the semi-trailers we had lost.

I spent 3 weeks assigned to an assembly line that was on strike (well OK, I spent one day reading a book and then went and found something more interesting to do).

Yes it is annoying. Remember that they are doing you a favor. And to be honest if you think an engineering career is all about nuts and bolts and puters then you have much to learn, and a job as a cost estimator (or whatever it is) may not be a bad place to see how things work in a big organisation.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[TheTick]

Don't stick w/ GE if you want to do any actual engineering, especially design.

 

[sms]

Based on your background GE would be a great company for you to work for.

Your concern was having work experience on your resume, use this time at GE to make contacts and figure out where and at what you really want to work.

It is probably an advantage if the job is not too demanding, it allows you to spend time making contacts and building a network. Once they see your capabilities, they will likely move you to something else anyway.

If you have something better lined up, do that, otherwise get on with the GE job, I doubt that you will regret it.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[MikeHalloran]

In a big outfit, you typically get stuffed into what is basically a clerical job. A degree is a job requirement because it allows you to recognize the 1/10 of 1 pct of the paperwork you process that actually requires engineering.

That _was_ the good news.

The bad news is that when you send up a flare about that one tiny technical task, the experienced engineers (who are bored out of their minds) will get into fights about which of them should get to do it ... and the work will actually go to the intern that the manager wants to keep.

From the intern's perspective that's not so bad. You'll never again be in a position to get so much learned advice and mentoring for so little cost.

Go. Learn. Enjoy.

Learn this at least: Job descriptions are not contracts, and are mostly fantasy anyway.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[tygerdawg]

(Ahhh...such a wonderful opportunity to be a cranky old cynic so early in the year )

If it doesn't suit you, then don't do it. Pursue another internship elsewhere (if your degree requires one). You have plenty of time to steer your own career in the direction you want. Being forced into a poor choice may hurt your career prospects and reputation and require damage control & rebuilding later.

You've not been so much bait-and-switch'ed as received an opportunity to see how stupid & screwed up huge organizations are. The clueless HR person probably has no idea about your job, only reacts to the info given to her. She's being judged on how efficiently she stuffs poor dumb clunks like you into available positions. She's not accountable for your job satisfaction and could care less. The lines of communication between her and the job are fuzzy at best. The position was probably stolen and given to Fred-The-Manager's nephew or something because it was a plum position. "Unfortunately Mr. X, the position for which you appliied is no longer available. Here's what we have available and it's almost the same. What's the matter, aren't you willing to be a Team Player with XYZ Company?"

Lucky you. You've gotten to see how dysfunctional a large company can be, and you saw this very early in your career.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Advanced Robotics & Automation Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[csd72]

HR at GE are useless.

It is a good company to get your foot in the door though. They are very into promoting engineers into managerial or quality roles.

Remember any experience is better than no experience.

 

[cvg]

at the intern level, you should not be expecting a "plum" job or even something you are "qualified" to do. These are generally the lowest of the low entry level jobs. However it should be a win-win for both you and your employer. (note, I am speaking from experience as I have two interns working for me now)

You will get valuable experience in the workplace and they will hopefully get a motivated employee that can help get things done. Remember that your employee regards you as a green horn that requires complete training to do a job. This requires a lot of effort by your employer. Hopefully they will be able to get some level of production out of you. They will also be evaluating you to see if you might be worth employing after graduation for the real job. At the same time, you should be evaluating them.

 

[pdmorris]

Thank you all for your input. I hope I haven't come off as ungrateful; I was simply upset because I selected this internship over other opportunities on the basis of the job description (which, in retrospect, may have been unwise).

The good news is, everything seems to have been worked out. I just spoke to the person in charge of assigning jobs and asked her whether an error might have been made in my case. She told me that she was unaware of the conversation I had with my contact and that she'd be happy to place me into a position that fit the original job description.

I might just do some real engineering yet!

 

[cksh]

I would stay away from GE like the plague. Think I would rather stay in automotive then work there. But thats my anti-corporate side speaking It is last on my list fo companies to work for.

I worked with a vendor who told me a story about a grad who went there. Said his first day they brought him and all the other recruits into a meeting. They said take a look at the person next to you because most of you wil not be here in 6 months.

Now I am starting to rant again: I am pretty sure GE follows the EVA process since alot of their higher-ups went to another compnay I worked for and tried the same philosophy. You will be human capital and nothing more and make sure you dont turn your back at the wrong moment.

But to tell you the truth it will get your foot in the door and get you experience. And it is an intership and you are gonna get the minion work just about anywhere

 

[EddyC]

cksh, I'm wondering what an EVA is?

pdmorris,

One of my past employers (a Civil) had summer interns on occasion. They had one guy copying & trimming drawings. He left after 1 day, saying that he could be making 3 times as much doing bartending. Another guy was sent into the field to crawl around the bottom of a highway overpass. He left after a week. Both of these guys had expectations of doing engineering work.

My current employer also had interns. These guys were doing some engineering.

So, things can vary from employer to employer.

 

[cvg]

we have our interns do engineering work. In fact, we ask them to do just about anything that needs to be done. sometimes fun / interesting, many times not. However, we generally find that they simply are not capable of doing many of the things we need done because they don't have any experience or limited time. We end up spending a lot of time mentoring and teaching them how to do things which takes a lot of our valuable time. They often have a full schedule of classes and so are not able to spend large amounts of time working on my projects. So the effectiveness of an intern can be questionable at times. However, we find out very quickly which ones are worth our time investment and hope to be able to get them on as full time employees after they graduate.

 

[melone]

What "real engineering work" do you feel that you are qualified to handle?

 

[pdmorris]

melone: rather than take the bait here, let me just say that I currently lack the experience necessary to correctly identify "real engineering work," and I would not be able to do it if I happened upon it. I wasn't trying to project a sense of entitlement, nor to downplay the work that an engineer does or the training that work requires; I was simply trying to express my enthusiasm for my new job description as it relates to my old job description. I'd like to think I'll now more resemble the subjects of EddyC's second paragraph than those of his first.

Having said that, I don't know you, and I'm not familiar with your posting history. It's possible that your question was more benign than I gave you credit for, so I'll answer it sincerely. The "real engineering work" I'm looking forward to (whether I'm qualified for it is a matter of opinion) is the opportunity to apply some of the math and science I've learned and to improve my critical thinking skills. In particular, as per my new job description, I'll be debugging circuit breakers and "designing electronic test equipment." These tasks may not be considered "real engineering" by some people, but I believe that, at the least, they'll help prepare me to be a real engineer.

 

[melone]

"real engineering work" means different things to different people. There is an entire spectrum of possible meanings:

Some people believe that it means designing something from scratch, to solve a unique, and complicated problem. This would entail drawing on a wealth of knowledge, expertise, and experience to make wise choices based on both techinical and more fuzzy selection criteria.

Another possible interpretation is that someone else does the design work (concept definition, rough / rule-of-thumb calculations, FEA's, etc.), and the greener engineers actually perform the complete-hand calculations to support the results from the more senior engineers.

While still another definition is to work with the technicians and lab folks learning that just because something is techincally possible in the computer, doesn't make it a good design.

By your previous post, I would guess you are leaning more towards the second definition.

When you were interviewing for your internships, did you make your expectations known to the people that were doing the interviews? Remember, interviews are bi-directional. Not only is it an opportunity for a future employer to figure out whether you are a good fit, but it also a chance for you to determine whether the company is a place for you.

 

[csd72]

'real engineering work' involves actually working on engines.

 

[jistre]

And pillowtick hats, csd72!

pdmorris, get the internship you want if you can, but don't be surprised if you get to do less "real engineering" work than you expected. Even established engineers don't always produce reams of work like you see in school. I'd wager that most don't, and even fewer fresh engineers do. That's just the nature of the beast that colleges can't tell you. If they told you, 'You will likely not use 75 percent of what we all say you have to know and you won't even use the other 25% every day,' no one would enroll.

The key thing to remember is that you're just finishing up school, but your education is woefully inadequate. If you're smart and you stick to it, you'll learn more about engineering in the next year to two than you learned your entire time in school and THEN you can begin writing your own ticket. Formulae are taught in school. Engineering is taught on the job, and that's what these internships are all about. They know you've got the formulae, but are you willing to start with the scut work and learn EVERYTHING you can about the sector you're in or the products you'll be working with? Chew your dirt and eventually, you'll be trusted enough to do the work you want to.

I've said this in other forums to other young engineers:
Learn, learn, learn. Never stop learning. Learn everything you can now that you've escaped the university. Whatever you fail to learn on your own now will likely be taught to next year's graduates who are willing to do it for entry level salaries. Eventually, your experience will not make up for your lack of new knowledge and your next position will be asking, "Would you like fries with that?"

Starting in the mud with an internship is the just the first step.

 

[pdmorris]

melone: While I told my interviewer what type of work I'd be interested in doing, I never used the word "expect." For that reason, had GE originally approached me with the Cost Out job I mentioned above, I wouldn't have held it against them. (I would've even accepted their offer if nothing better had come along.) However, they approached me with a different (and more desirable, in my mind) offer, and I turned down other offers as a result. At that point, I believe they had some responsibility to try to deliver what they said they would.

If there's one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that engineering job descriptions frequently mis-represent the jobs for which they're intended. In the future, I'll be sure to place less faith in them than I have here. Similarly, when interviewing, I'll make a point to be very clear about what my expectations are so that my dis-satisfaction will be justified if a reasonable effort is not made to reach them.

jistre: That's great advice. Thank you.

 

[DonPE]

I'm just stunned to learn the Plainville plant is still open? I thought they closed that plant months ago. The parking lot looked pretty desolate last time I went by.

 

[plasgears]

Funny how experiences vary. My best job was 10 yrs with GE in Cincinnati. My worst was several years in automotive in Michigan.

GE had the best fund of high level talent, Phds, etc. They were well published, and they produced ingenious computer programs. It was a heady experience. It showed up in good advances in engineering and manufacturing techniques.

Automotive was a strange galaxy with engineers working for QC characters with little training beyond HS. They spoke a strange QC/ISO9000 language, too. I had a supervisor who was a boozer and womanizer (married, too). The atmosphere was sophomoric with Halloween contests, etc. The company has since been sold twice in the space of several years.