Basement wall has I-beams

[larrym]

My daughter is looking at buying a house that has rather substantial looking I-Beams evenly spaced along one wall in the basement. Basement wall is block. 1970-80's vintage.

I don't see any indication of horizontal cracks. There is a obvious vertical crack to the left of the array of beams and another vertical crack to the right of the array of beams. Cracks run a majority of the height of the wall not sure how they repaired the crack but it's painted over so it gets hard telling where it starts and stops.

The I-Beams are set in cement into the floor and blocked in with 2X8's or 2X10's in between the floor joists. I-Beams are set flush to the block wall, if there is a bow, it's fractions of an inch from top to bottom.

Something does not quite look right and I can't tell what questions to ask, etc. other than...What Happened and/or why did you do this???

Thoughts??? Ideas?

Yes, if she decides to go ahead, we will get an engineer to check this out in a lot more detail. Just trying to decide if it's worth the effort and $$ to pay for a home inspection.

Regards
Larry

Larry Mackey

 

[msquared48]

If the I beams are vertically oriented in the wall, they may be soldier piles with the concrete infill basement wall spanning horizontally between.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[KootK]

My best guess based on the information provided:

The wall was not sufficiently attached to the floor above and it started to cave in, flexing as a horizontal plate supported on three sides (bottom, left, right). This led to vertical cracks that probably don't quite make it to the bottom of the walls. Somehow, the bulge was corrected and the steel was installed as reinforcement.

Definitely have an engineer evaluate this. Personally, I wouldn't buy the place if my diagnosis is correct:

1) It's hard to believe that such a wall is watertight.
2) This will freak out all future buyers and mess with resale value.
3) If heavy rains collapse the wall again, it will be a nightmare.

I'd start looking for a less special property to buy. Of course, lay people may find this less distressing than a structural engineer would.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[hokie66]

I agree with KootK that the beams were most likely installed to repair a problem with the wall. Discourage her from buying this one, but if she perseveres, get a local structural engineer involved.

 

[larrym]

Thanks to all for the responses. I love Eng-Tips forums...

Yes, the I-Beams are vertical.
I appreciate and agree with KootK that one of the major problems here is selling not buying this house.

With the exception of this issue a few other cosmetic (paint, carpeting, etc. from the 1980's), this house looks in great condition and fulfills all of their wants, and needs on their check list.

Getting a structural engineer to look at this is definitely on the home inspection list. Other than a visual inspection, what other measures could be done to either monitor this long term or (preferably) tests that could be done in conjunction with the home inspection to evaluate the risk of this problem returning. I guess the real basic question is how much would you discount the purchase price to offset this issue?

I know that there is a risk that reselling the house is going to be a problem. I am not sure how to quantify how much of a risk of further problems with this wall.

Part of this is trying to counsel a daughter on her first home purchase...it's a learning experience as we all know. And she and her husband are willing students.

Regards
Larry

Larry Mackey

 

[KootK]

Quantifying the risk is the tricky bit. Some options:

1) Have a well known, local, mid-sized structural firm come out and give their blessing to the existing condition. Assume that their fee incorporates their perception of risk and liability. Double that fee and subtract it from the selling price. Double it because you'll pay for it once now and perhaps once again when the house is sold.

2) Get a quote from a contractor for ripping the wall out and replacing it wholesale. Take half that value and subtract it from the asking price. Halve it because wholesale replacement represents an extreme outcome.

3) Imagine that an identical house is for sale and located next door. And the only difference it that it doesn't have this basement wall problem. What price delta would motivate you to purchase the house with the basement issues? For me, it would be about $20K.

My original response may have given the impression that I don't approve of the repairs. That isn't the case at all. The repair sounds appropriate and competently executed. It may well serve for the life of the structure. It's just always going to draw the eye.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[larrym]

KootK,

I do appreciate the discussion and thoughts.

While walking away from this house might be the easy thing to do... Doing some diligence on their part may allow them to get into a home at a really good price in exchange for some risk in the future. As long as they fully understand the risk and accept the impact of that and can get some price relief from the seller to offset at least some of that risk...

If the repair is good, and the risk of further action needed on the wall in the near term low, then one option would be to finish off the basement and integrate the beams into the finishing...lots of insulation on an outside wall?? And include a few access panels for inspection purposes going forward. That would at least slow down the first time prospective home owner from running away...

Larry

Larry Mackey

 

[KootK]

Even with the access panels, I worry about trapping moisture behind the finishes and making a scary situation even worse. Maybe you could leave a healthy, ventilated air space between the furring wall and the existing stuff.

Certainly, don't take my word for it that the repair is good. I make my living as a freelance Uber driver. Definitely get somebody out there who's licensed in your neck of the woods.

As far as resale goes, I think that strategic honesty is the best approach:

1) Get a stamped letter from a reputable engineer that say that all is right with the world.

2) Clean up the wall as best you can and take some pictures.

3) Build the furring wall that you mentioned.

When fish come a bitin', show them the pictures and the engineering report up front. Your daughter will seem forthright and the prospective buyers may be so distracted by the wall that they'll miss the leaky roof and the heaving garage slab.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[larrym]

True...the heaving slab is in the driveway... Pouring a slab on a driveway with a steep incline and not securing it to anything......gravity does amazing things So does winter road salt in our neck of the woods

Larry

Larry Mackey

 

[GeoPaveTraffic]

I agree with the other responses. Also, try and find out from the owner why the beams were installed and who designed them. Might provide some insight.

Mike Lambert

 

[dicksewerrat]

Building inspector's office?

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[larrym]

This house is not in an incorporated city or township and permits are managed rather loosely by the county. While technically this would require a permit since the without a doubt is structural...since it was indoors...who knows.
The house went under contract with someone else before we could get our ducks lined up so....someone else gets to resolve this dilemma

Thanks to all for the help.

Larry

Larry Mackey