Billboard Advertising 2

[RLM2000]

Hello in the forum! This is my first post. I have spent considerable time reading this forum and have found it very interesting. Many of you have great insights on ethical issues, and it seems that there is a wide variety of attitudes here. I have posted the following message (edited) on the NSPE boards, but they are much less active than this one.

Here goes. . .

I am part of a small multi-faceted civil/industrial/structural engineering consulting firm. I am our project manager and do some of our sales work as well. I have a client with a large lot next to a major highway who I ran into at a social gathering and hinted around about a lot he had next to a four lane (albeit heavily traveled) highway. We began to talk about possible development of this parcel. I came up with the idea of building 2 billboard standards with rental spaces. He liked the idea as it would not constrain him from using the rest of the parcel, and he could begin to gain profit from the site (aside from a cell tower).

Our scope will be getting the correct permits from our highway department, building permits from the county, and some minor site planning for power and an access road to the structures.

Here is my question:

The client has offered one of the billboard spaces to us for a time (TBD) for our efforts, he also would be willing to pay our fee instead of the advertisement. Without going into the contracting/pay issues, I would like to hear your takes on the ethics of this advertisement. The sign would read something like "Permitting, Planning, Structural design by . . . _____ Engineering, and below say INDUSTRIAL, COMMERCIAL, RESIDENTIAL, CONSTRUCTABILITY REVIEW etc.". Size would be roughly 20' x 8'.

I realize this is a major no-no according to some previous cases. The major issue being that a billboard has no target market, which I think might be the crux of the issue. I have seen other companies place their names on structures and sites that are being worked on, and in this case we will be doing more site design at this location in the future, but how far am I stretching this? I am trying to actively market to the area we are doing the work in. It is experiencing great growth and I believe that this sign could have a major impact on our sales for the next 5 years.

Honestly, before I went into this business I did not realize how restrictive proffessional licensure was. The *business* of engineering is so strange. I almost feel that Canon 5 "Engineers shall build their professional reputation on the merit of their services and shall not compete unfairly with others" is un-American from a business standpoint.

The area in question is mainly served by only a few firms as these are the ones who have established work in the area. They are no better than us professionally, they are just recognized here. I am very interested in your opinions of this situation.

 

[Ashereng]

I am not a lawyer.

How about this?

There is no law against putting the name of the engineering company up at a construction site/development site.

Put the name of your company, and/or logo on the bill board.

It is not advertisement since you are not advertising what you do, or even how to contact you. It is simply an identifier.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[HVACctrl]

I glanced over something in the "laws" and/or "rules" of PE licensure in my state (Louisiana) that said certain forms of advertising were not allowed.

I don't understand it. We are limited in so many ways. What is wrong with adverstising? Unless the laws give us some reasoning behind it- and there may be some reasonable, legitimate reason- I will question it.

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be allowed, but again, I do believe there is something against it in the licensure laws. I would welcome the opportunity to advertise like that. I think the engineering community needs more public exposure. Its not like you're saying, "Were you hurt in an accident?" Let me help you build a frivolous lawsuit, etc..." I think those types of commercials and advertisements are a joke. But if we as engineers want to advertise with integrity, I say, "why not"?

Ed

 

[MintJulep]

Take the money.

For ANY new development of a property there will be some number of pissed-off people with no real life and nothing better to do.

If your name and phone number is prominently displayed, who do you think they will call?

 

[ccor]

See Canon 5 of the ASCE's code of ethics.

https://www.asce.org/inside/codeofethics.cfm

I think this is clearly not competing unfairly, but does it, "is in any other manner derogatory to the dignity of the profession." From the list of what is allowed I would say a billboard is in a grey area. Conservatively, I would say that I would not pursue this, also because it's probably not a particularly effective marketing strategy anyway.

 

[JAE]

I don't think there are direct prohibitions against engineers advertising. Every year our local paper has an insert with nothing but ads for engineers during E-Week. My local state statutes do say that an engineer cannot make extravagent claims about their expertise (i.e. - keep the ads professional) - which is similar to the above statement about being derogatory to the dignity of the profession.

But putting your company on a billboard is not directly denied so I don't see it as being unethical.

 

[JAE]

Here's the text of what ccor linked to:

Engineers may advertise professional services in a way that does not contain misleading language or is in any other manner derogatory to the dignity of the profession. Examples of permissible advertising are as follows:


A) Professional cards in recognized, dignified publications, and listings in rosters or directories published by responsible organizations, provided that the cards or listings are consistent in size and content and are in a section of the publication regularly devoted to such professional cards.

B) Brochures which factually describe experience, facilities, personnel and capacity to render service, providing they are not misleading with respect to the engineer's participation in projects described.

C) Display advertising in recognized dignified business and professional publications, providing it is factual and is not misleading with respect to the engineer's extent of participation in projects described.

D) A statement of the engineers' names or the name of the firm and statement of the type of service posted on projects for which they render services.

E) Preparation or authorization of descriptive articles for the lay or technical press, which are factual and dignified. Such articles shall not imply anything more than direct participation in the project described.

F) Permission by engineers for their names to be used in commercial advertisements, such as may be published by contractors, material suppliers, etc., only by means of a modest, dignified notation acknowledging the engineers' participation in the project described. Such permission shall not include public endorsement of proprietary products.

 

[Ashereng]

I think Item D in this case probably comes closest to the billboard in this post. So, a statement of the company (plus logo), type of service rendered (xxx engineering) is pretty much it.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[RLM2000]

Very good stuff coming out of this thread.

As far as people getting upset about the development this location is about as good as it gets for non-exposure to residential areas. Plus as a Civil/Site company we are pretty used to listening to people's complaints regarding developments. Doing the work correctly and per the code is all we have to answer, but still complaints about development will always be a part of my business.

As far as an effective marketing strategy, I don't know. This area is a rural one that is ripe for development and this highway is a thoroughfare for major industrial construction at a Port District. This ad would be targeted at the Mom's and Pops who want to develop the back 40 and retire to Palm Springs. As much as I hate these stinkin' generica subdivisions, some engineer is going to be working in this area, it might as well be me. Moms and Pops find engineering companies by opening the phone book or asking their neighbor who did theirs. If we can get our website stuck in their minds we might pick off some of these clients before they get to the phone book or walk across the street.

My real worry is this: Say you're one of the 3 major firms who has a choke-hold on the work in this area. You're driving down to meet the county one day and see your competitor's sign prominently displayed for everyone entering the area. Would you think "Those low-down, money hungry, client stealing SOBs!" And look into legal action or call the board. I think we would be legally cool if we only gave a name, number, website and list of services on the sign.

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered by a bilboard from a competitor, but I look at engineering from a business standpoint first.

 

[ccor]

If the ad had just the services you provide and your contact information, I'd say your competitors have little grounds for action. Contact your licensing board for an opinion in advance. Or you could address your real concern in a different way, a direct mailing of a brochure to the Mom's and Pop's you want to work for, and any developer's doing work in the area. They may not be all that happy with any of the three established firms and not even know you exist.

 

[BJC]

Talk with the marketing people at your local PBS channel. Find a show that the Mom and Pops will watch and underwrite it ( or partially underwrite ). They will remember your name longer than it takes to throw junk mail away and they won't get as mad as a billboard will make them.

 

[HVACctrl]

Why can't engineers make a profit and go afer money? This in response to the potential reaction someone mentioned by a competing firm.

We don't do this just for fun. I don't plan on working for a meager salary because it is the conservative, proper, dignified thing for the profession.

I just hate that we engineers are expected not to consider money a primary factor. Sure, let's bow down, submit, make meager salaries and allow the real estate agents and title companies walk away with everything. They're the ones who actually dedicated themselves to education and doing the right thing! LOL

Ed

 

[cadnutcase]

I didn't see this anywhere up above, but if you put on that billboard that you are a civil/industrial/structural engineering firm, you are probably going to get calls for anything to do with your business.


My guess is you will get calls on the following.

I need somebody to engineer my foundation for my driveway.
I need somebody to engineer my kid's tree house.
blah blah blah.

Oh and your human resource person will be aggravted when they get 10 calls a day asking if they are hiring. Doesn't matter what you are hiring for, they are qualified for it.

 

[DRC1]

I am not sure if the billboard falls squarely into the lists in the Cannon, but I don't have a problem with it if it is tastefull and does not knock the competition. I think bold advertising is good for the profession. If we follow the Cannon guidelines too literally, We loook lke shirking wall flowers. IF engineers want to be noticed and get their due, we need to get out there. Wether or not this works for you business, it is hard to say sometimes and that has to be your call. I would plan what I wanted on the billboard and run it by your board. If they are okay with it, and you want to do it, I say go for it and I wish you great luck.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

I would gladly design/engineer someone's driveway, tree house, dog house, etc. for a fee. If someone wants to pay me for my time, I will give them a quality product.

 

[RLM2000]

Thanks everyone for your responses!

I get the feeling that many of you are on the same wavelength as myself and fellow people in our office. I might actually go for this.

Also, DaveVikingPE I agree with you. If a client will sign a contract and pay me to design a chicken coop, I will do it. I also see cadnutcase's point in that we could be overrun with cheap jobs. That is our duty i.e. my duty to ensure that our potential clients understand that an engineer is not cheap, and to ask us to consult will cost money and will lengthen their project planning (although it could speed their permitting time).

 

[MikeHalloran]

OR, you could resell the space/time, not put your name on it, and just take the profit.

OR, you could give the space/time to a charity, and append just your company's name at the bottom, sort of like 'supporting' a program on PBS.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA