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BIM for Fire Sprinkler Design

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AWHFP

Mechanical
Nov 4, 2010
3
Hello,

Our company is looking to jump in on the BIM bandwagon. I was told to look into buying Revit & HydraCAD (or any sprinkler software). Please let me know your thoughts. We will be starting from scratch on this project, new software for everything. Also, if we purchase Revit, do we also have to purchase AutoCAD? Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 
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I personally think Revit is a good MEP software to use. It is expensive, though.

While it is a bit more time consuming than drawing in 2D Cad, the amount of time spent in dealing with conflicts in the field has drastically reduced.

Revit has sprinklers in its library so you could build the piping route and parts list fairly easily.

But Revit will not do hydraulic calcs - yet. It will help size the pipe and has limited capabilities for friction drop, etc., but it doesn't know how to add the friction loss of fittings and valves to the overall friction loss of the system.

We use AutoCad for details and for site plans - although you can still use Revit for the details if you desire. I would not use it for site plans, yet.

One of the difficulties with using it on the design side for BIM is when you have to list competing manufacturers in your specifications. You will use a part or a family from one manufacturer, but to get the whole benefit from BIM, the contractor - or your company will have to replace all the parts of equipment that differed from what you put into the design. Be sure you get that extra effort included in your fee.
 
AWHFP :

REVIT and Autocad are totally different programs.
Pedarrin is right.
Are the architectural drawings your company receive, Revit files? . The decision to jump in it relies on your costumers. If they are sending DWG files you will need Autocad.
Revit is useful for coordination between architecture and other installations, but is very difficult to use with all its features, at least for Autocad users.
If you are starting from scratch, are you going to draw all the building?. In my opinion is a big jump, and we are waiting for the architectural firms to do it first.
 
Pedarrin2:

Thank you for the info. Is there an add-on program I can get to attach to revit for the calcs, stocklist, etc?


Sprinkler1000:
The architect will already have the building, hvac, and plumbing drawn in Revit. I am looking to design, calc, and stocklist an entire sprinkler system with what they send me.
 
We are on subscription for Revit MEP and AutoCAD is part of the license. So if you have Revit, you also have AutoCAD.
 
I don't know that just because you have Revit, you automatically get AutoCad. There might be a subscription that allows you to do that, but I don't know that it is automatic.

You can use Revit if nobody else (arch, PME) is - but I would highly recommend not doing it. It is very difficult and you would be "building" the building in your model. Let the architect build the model and and bring in the PME and Structural models so you can coordinate it.

Get involved as soon as possible in the design or you might find that nobody left you any room above the ceiling.

I don't do sprinkler hydraulic calcs, except very basic to determine if I need a pump or not, so am not sure if there is anything that can be added on.

There might be something you can export the Revit file into that will run the calcs - but I don't know.
 
REVIT is good for very complicated projects such as ship building.
In HVAC, anyone can cut a section and anyone paying the slightest attention can see all obstructions easily, the time that it takes to do Revit drawings does not justify its expense.
Besides, it takes highly qualified CAD guys to operate this thing (assuming they do Revit ona daily bais), unless you want to use Engineers doing the CAD work. For me, Engineers doing CAD work in HVAC is a waste of brain, Engineers should be investigating codes, LCC's, laying out MER's, code analysis, report writing, spec writing, develop controls and sequence of operations, etc. - NOT spend time on screen. CAD work is for high school level education.

Keep in mind that it is very expensive to train people at Revit. When your people do get the training, they will leave to someone who needs and willing to pay for that expertise. So, unless you are a big firm with a true training budget, I'd pass on it.

 
cry22,

I do agree that small companies will likely not get Revit since it is expensive to procure and does require training.

To use Revit effectively, in my opinion, you cannot expect line jockeys (i.e. strict CAD drafters) to be able to do it. But it doesn't require engineers to do drafting either. Companies who employ designers/drafters who understand how systems go together, how equipment works, how to lay out piping/ductwork, etc. are ideal canditates for Revit. The engineer can oversee at a certain level the big picture of the project and then have time to do the engineering.

If he wants to mark up plans and hand them to somebody to put into the software, he will burn up his budget. At least that is what we have experienced.

I totally disagree with your statement about the time it takes to cut a section being the same. If you have ductwork, plumbing, fire suppression, electrical conduit, cable tray, structural elements, walls, etc. changing or moving - it is very difficult for everybody involded to see the changes as they happen. In AutoCad, everybody has to move everybody else's components in their section. In Revit, you just tap the "Reload Latest" or Reload a link - all of which might take 5-10 minutes and everybody can see the changes without doing anything to the section. And if you want to move the section a few feet down a corridor - the components automatically shift to where you place the section.

And, at least in Revit 9 and beyond, you can draw pipe in section and it shows up in plan view. I like this especially for sloped plumbing pipe because I can look at the route I want to take my pipe, se all the structure and other elements and then draw in my pipe. If that route doesn't work, I can shift the section a few feet and find a route that will work. I do not know that can be done by manually drawing sections, especially when things move so much.

Revit does take more time on the design side, but from my experience, there is a lot less time spent on working out "fit" problems in the field - especially if the contractors are given the model to put together coordination drawings.

The contractor who understands this can submit a bid that is less expensive (and more likely to be awarded) because he knows the effort to put together coordination drawings will take less time to do than if he had to use 2d Cadd drawings.

It is the PMET and A firms that have to understand that when using Revit, it might take more effort during design, but less effort dealing with problems in the field.

Another facet which is pertinent is what the owner wants. If he wants a model to be able to see where the piping is going and how it fits, and to use for BIM - Revit is ideal. In Revit, I can set up schedules that automatically count all fittings, valves, pipe lengths, etc. If I shorten a section of pipe, it shows up in the schedule. If I add fittings, it shows up. I don't have to keep track of anything.

I don't know whether AutoCadd has this capability.

In Revit, if it is used right, on projects of medium to high complexity, the owner gets a better, more coordinated design, and the whole fee paid to the design team for design and construction administration is typically the same.

And when the owner sees the quality of design he receives, he is more willing to pay a little extra for the extra effort Revit takes. And when the architect knows of PMET firms that are proficient in Revit, he is more likely to want them on the team than than a firm who is not proficient in Revit.

I have seen this with my company - where owners and architects seek us out to be on the design team, not because we have the lowest fee, but because we have the reputation of excelling at using Revit.
 
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