Bio-Fuels

[JoshPlumSE]

Someone asked a question about "synthetic fuels" on another forum where we were talking about gas prices and such. I don't know much about this subject, so I thought I would ask this forum about it and see if I can learn anything from you guys.

I know that I've read about "bio-diesel" fuels that cost about the same as Diesel (on a per gallon basis). My impression is that these are made from vegetable oils and that these can be used in standard diesel engines. Does anyone know if that's true?

Is there any research being done on a "bio-gasoline" that could be used in 4 stroke engines?

Now, I also remember an article (see below) which talked about Ethanol as a fuel and how it would not be any more carbon friendly than gasoline. This is certainly debatable. But, I wonder if the idea of using the farmland for both bio-diesel and ethanol at the same time would significantly change that assessment. It's not difficult to see how this would be done, the sugars from the corn are used to produce ethanol, the fats from the corn are used to produce bio-diesel.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-corn-based-ethanol-worse-200000730.html

 

[TugboatEng]

We are transitioning our fleet to hydrotreated vegetable oil at the beginning of next year. It's being produced at Phillips 66 in Rodeo California.

Yes, they can be used in diesel engines without modification. Various performance measures are within 3-5% of #2 diesel.

 

[dik]

Maybe not a panacea... "In Europe, the controversy over ILUC was reignited this week when a British government report was leaked to the Times of London claiming that although the European Commission requires each liter of biofuel to reduce emissions by 35% compared to petroleum, biodiesel via palm oil actually increases emissions by 31% due to forests being converted into plantations."

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/an-inconvenient-truth-biofuels-have-a-carbon-footprint

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[rb1957]

"bio" fuels (and "sustainable" fuels) work AFAIK by closing the time between when the fuel's Carbon was takn form the atmosphere and when it is returned. If fuel is produced one year (if Carbon is removed from the atmosphere by say growing algae) and returned to the atmosphere next year (when the fuel is burnt) then what's the harm ?

Unlike FF where the Carbon was removed eons ago, and now we're adding a lot of Carbon to the atmosphere.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[dik]

If carbon is added and removed in the same amount, then nothing is being done to reduce it. It's still too high. The solution to climate change includes drastically reducing the carbon footprint. Biofuels may not do that... it's like electric vehicles; for them to work, it requires 'green' electricity... not provided by fossil fuel generators.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

How does converting forest into plantation create such an increase in CO2 emissions? Is a forest more efficient at growing than a plantation? If that were the case then wouldn't we just harvest the forest?

That comment doesn't really follow logic. However, I think there is a far greater threat from converting forest to plantation and that is the loss of biological diversity.

 

[dik]

Silly man... removing trees increases the carbon footprint by eliminating one of the sources that removes carbon dioxide through photosynthesis... In addition, the removal of trees increases the carbon due to the tree material... the amount of foliage in a rain forrest is far greater than in a palm oil plantation.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

"bio" fuels (and "sustainable" fuels) work AFAIK by closing the time between when the fuel's Carbon was takn form the atmosphere and when it is returned. If fuel is produced one year (if Carbon is removed from the atmosphere by say growing algae) and returned to the atmosphere next year (when the fuel is burnt) then what's the harm ?

That was basically the discussion in the previous thread about ethanol additives in gasoline as a way to reduce carbon footprint. The allegation (which is definitely open for debate) is that the land use change (and the carbon emitted during that change), combined with the use of nitrogen fertilizers, tilling the fields and such was enough to negate any real savings from the ethanol. I'm a little skeptical. But, it's something to probably look at a little more closely if we're going to really rely on these fuels as a method of reducing our carbon footprint.

 

[dik]

Other than hydro power... the main way to reduce the carbon footprint is to use less transportation, including air and automobiles. I don't know how this will end up.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

The trees are being removed and replaced with faster growing more productive trees. That should increase the CO2 absorption.

I do believe there must be detrimental effects to these plantations but we've all been trained to be skeptical of claims in online articles at this point. I won't accept a statement like 30% worse without an explanation of how that conclusion was arrived at.

My skepticism of biofuels comes from the rest of the biomass. If the palm oil comes from the fruit what is done with the leaves? They can't be left to decompose as that would produce CO2 AND CH4.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

My skepticism of biofuels comes from the rest of the biomass. If the palm oil comes from the fruit what is done with the leaves? They can't be left to decompose as that would produce CO2 AND CH4.

The goal is NOT to come up with fuel pulls more CO2 out of the atmosphere than we put into it by burning (and producing) the fuel. Rather the goal is to reduce the amount of CO2 we put into the atmosphere when compared to using fossil fuels. Then let nature pull CO2 out of the atmosphere the normal way..... slowing reducing the net CO2 in our atmosphere.

Regardless, we are so far on the OTHER side of the equation, that we can only accept what small steps in the right direction that we can make.

 

[dik]

They are not more productive trees... The amount of foliage in the canope is far less with palm 'orchards'. What do you do with the palm 'fruit' after you suck the oil out of them? Do you add to the carbon footprint by 'scrapping them'. The crushed 'seeds' are not reusable and they don't tap the palm trees like rubber trees or hard maples... Sorry Tug... The end result is that you end up with a bigger footprint. As Josh notes above, the total effect on the carbon footprint has to include all between 'birth' and 'death'. Using EVs only makes sense if you have a 'green' source of power.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

The biofuels concern me because of their decomposition. On one hand, we can use fossil fuels and produce a lot of CO2 and a little methane or we can use biofuels and produce slightly less CO2 and a lot more methane.

There needs to be more study of total cost involved with energy production. Instead, we hyper focus on CO2 at the point of use and ignore everything else everywhere else in the supply chain.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I get it. Methane is a "greenhouse gas" too. Right?

I'm talking more about corn than about palm oil. But, either way, I'd hope that we'd use all the fruit we can for ethanol. And, all the oil we can for bio-diesel. Then we use the leaves and stalks and such the same way they do for current corn. Mixed in with other stuff to create cattle feed and such. The we use the cattle crap to fertilize the fields and we start all over again.

That's one of the things about our capitalist system, agricultural businesses become very efficient with their waste products. They're used to feed other animals or to fertilize fields or such. So, we've already got an infrastructure set up to do all of this. We just need to find a way to power our cars and such from it.... It's not a slam dunk, but nothing's going to be a solution to our problem by itself. But, every small step forward will help.

 

[dik]

It all becomes part of the carbon footprint for the fuel


and the added methane from cattle crap becomes part of this carbon footprint.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

That is why it is so important to understand the methodology of their calculations. Is methane slip included as part of the "carbon footprint"? I don't think so.


The cattle crap story is false.

 

[dik]

It's mostly the cattle themselves, and they do generate a lot of methane...

https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/why-methane-cattle-warms-climate-differently-co2-fossil-fuels

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Just being literal. The methane from the crap is remediable as crap can be fermented and decomposed in a way that collects the methane. Lots of wastewater plants have methane collection and use it to power engines for power generation.

However, the trouble with cows is their burps which are exhausted through their nose.

Which one of you did this!?

 

[dik]

Whatever the exit... methane comes from both ends, and yes the methane can be trapped, but it isn't and there are no plans I'm aware of to do this.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

That picture in my comment is from a patent or a plan to capture it.