CalculationCenter 7

[mrMikee]

As I looked over posts in the spreadsheet forum, I started to wonder why more people don't use a program like CalculationCenter (CC2) from Wolfram Research. I admit I am not very experienced with Excel and have not used it much. Most of my calcualtions over the years has been with BASIC and VisualBASIC, but during the last year I am using CC2 more and VB less.

If anyone is interested in this topic please respond. I am curious about what others have experienced with calculations and various software answers. In other words, an overview, some personal opinions, perspectives, and so on.

A brief background on CC2. It seems to be a lite version of mathematica but with some special commands, and costs only $295. Mathematica, Maple, and Matlab are very expensive, especially for people like me who have to buy their own software. Even Mathcad is getting expensive at $1200.

I guess what I'm saying is that I like CC2, but would like to know what other engineers think.

-Mike

 

[SacreBleu]

I have no idea what CC2 is. Since most of the world has been forced into Bill Gate's monopolization (re: Excel), I find Excel to be sufficient for most calculations. Certainly, more engineers are familiar with Excel than with CC2, Mathcad, etc.

 

[mrMikee]

CalculationCenter (CC2) is in the general category called Computer Algebra Software (CAS) which is a hard thing to describe. It' s like a word processor that does math. You type in your equations and the program gives you an answer. It functions somewhat like a spreadsheet, programmable calculator, conventional programing, but the difference is that everything is visible. Unlike a spreadsheet which hides the formulas and logic of the program.

The other programs I mentioned are relatively well known in highly technical fields but don't seem to be widely used by the 'average' engineer. Their cost is in the range $1200 to $1900.

My son son has used Mathcad for years as he went through college and now at his job. It's all very nice but I just never got interested until last year when I purchased CC2. It has surprised me how much I like this software and am interested in the opinions of others.

I'm not complaining about spreadsheets, but am curious how CC2 fits in the general picture with the other tools such as spreadsheets, programing, calculators, special purpose software, pencil and paper, etc.

-Mike

 

[brainstorming]

Scientific calculator would do as CC2 does as per your description
I used to use Excel in most of my calculations, if required other program I preferred Matlab
Thank you for the new information
Regards

 

[mrMikee]

The comparison of CAS programs like CalculationCenter to programmable calculators is actually a very good analogy. DERIVE by Texas Instruments can communicate with TI-89 and TI-92+ calculators so I assume their commands are similar.

I have read that Matlab is preferred by engineers over the other high end systems probably because of its powerful matrix capabilites, however it costs about $1900.

I am a structural engineer. My day consists mostly of adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. Sometimes a lot of it. I am interested in ways to save time and eliminate errors, but with spreadsheets and calculation programs I occasionally wonder about the saving time part of it.

Thanks for the comments.

-Mike

 

[SacreBleu]

My typical excel workbooks have hundreds of formulae, logic tests, lookup tables, etc. All this is hidden so as not to confuse while inputting and observing output, and to not clutter up the printed calculation sheets.
Therefore, since CC2 shows all the formulae, what advantage is that?

 

[electricpete]

The student versions of Maple and Matlab ran around $100 each when I got them around 8 years ago. Both are full-functioned and very useful. There are some license restrictions but I don't believe they prohibit personal non-business use after one graduates.

If you were inclined to take a course requiring such software anyway,the cheap software would be a great added benefit.

ihmo, Maple is a formiddable tool in an engineer's arsenal.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

 

[mrMikee]

Hi SacreBleu,

Part of my problem here is that I am not a very experienced spreadsheet user. The reason for this is because years ago I tended to use BASIC for most of my programing tasks and as a result became more comfortable with it. I think BASIC and Excel are similar in that the programing is done in the background and the output is what you want to make it.

I am currently working on a program to do AISC ASD code checking calculations. As you point out, you don't want see all those equations everytime you do a calculation. CC2 and Mathcad allow you to collapse sections as needed.

So is CalculationCenter just a fun toy, or a useful engineering tool? Is it as good as or better than other tools, or not? I'm not sure.

Thanks for the input.

-Mike

 

[SacreBleu]

MrMikee,
Since you are also a Structural, and you imply that Excel may not save time, I am floored by that statement. Even though Excel is somewhat limited in math abilities, and very limited in matrix capabilities, it has been a trusted workhorse for me (even tho it sometimes "crashes"). What do you expect from it? Do you have advanced needs, such as running a continuous beam with complex loading? I would certainly like to hear from someone if they have been able to do that on Excel.

 

[SacreBleu]

MrMikee, our post crossed in cyberspace. I don't think CC2 is useful - most people collaborate with Excel. I am also devising an AISC Excel spredsheet. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to compare notes. I am not leery of exchanging spreadsheets; I like to exchange ideas.

 

[mrMikee]

SacreBleu,

Thanks for the comments.

I have been writing programs (first with BASIC, then VisualBasic) for many years and really do appreciate the time savings possible with a well designed program. However it takes time to write these programs, and a few times (Ok, more than a few) I spent more time creating a program than I ended up saving by doing the task the 'old' way.

When I made the comment about saving time in the previous post, what I was thinking about at the moment was programing something that you might do only once or twice. If you can do several pages of hand calcs and get them right or not have something change, then that might be the way to go. But you never know when something is going to change and when it does it usually is more work to recover with hand calcs than a computer solution.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[mrMikee]

electricpete,

Ok, we have a vote for Maple.

I too was tempted to try a student package of one of the math programs but apparantly just wasn't that interested. Several times I looked into Mathcad, but each time it had gone up considerably in price.

Maybe some day I get one of the 'big' programs like Maple, Mathematica, or Matlab, but for now I am sufficiently entertained with CalculationCenter.

Thanks for your comments,

-Mike

 

[SacreBleu]

I looked at various websites describing Maple. It looks excellent. Too bad I have about 8 years worth of Excel workbooks, and too much trouble to convert now. Most everyone at work is only familiar with Excel.
Maple looks very useful to someone just starting out to program at work.

 

[MortenA]

CC2 sounds a bit like MathCAD. I use mathCAD on occation when i think thats it a calculation that i will rarely use - or if i need to put the calculation in a report with all the formulas looking nice.

Best regards

Morten

 

[corus]

This topic appears to be a sales pitch however comparing this with a 'popular' spreadhseet -

http://www.wolfram.com/products/calculationcenter/why/chart.html

- I don't see much difference between the two. Excel is fine for handling data and can use Visual Basic for more advanced manipulation. If I want something that uses a lot of functions/formulae then MathCad seems to do fine.



corus

 

[IRstuff]

You can still buy older versions of Mathcad through Ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/mathcad_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8

As for the visibility of equations, that's VERY useful for documentation, particularly if you use meaningful symbol nomenclature. It also makes it infinitely easier to figure out what you did 6 months ago. Sometimes, the equation trace in Excel can be quite tortuous. Mathcad's ability to use range and indexed variables significantly simplifies some calculations. Mathcad has a Solver functionality similar to Excel, but the process is documented directly in the sheet and the process is much more transparent and understandable:

Given blah=blegh find(x)=

Every tool has its place and appropriate applications. Matlab's strength is in matrix math and system simulations. Mathcad's strength is its graphical interface. Excel's strength is in its table calculations.

TTFN

 

[imagitec]

I'm just a run of the mill mechanical guy, not somebody with an advanced degrees who writes CFD code for a living. The types of calculations I do "by hand" (i.e., not FEA) include subjects like bolted joint design and convection for various geometries. I prefer MathCAD to Excel precisely because I can see the "work" - it's easier to check my work or to have someone else check it (I have been known to make the occassional mistake). Not only is it visible, it's in a clear format. Parsing a complex equation in Excel makes my head spin with all those parentheses and carets. And since like many technical users I can use a keyboard, input is very efficient.

Although I like MathCAD is because it is explicit, I can also make my worksheets compact by creating reuseable functions, inserting references to external files, etc.

The equation formatting in MathCAD may not be presentation quality, but it's good enough that I've used it in presentations and technical papers simply by cutting and pasting it.

Works pays for MathCAD, so price isn't much of an object. If I ever have a personal need for similar capabilities, however, I'll take a close look at CC2. Thanks for pointing it out, MrMikee.

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys -

http://www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell

 

[mrMikee]

corus,

The sales pitch can always be made to the advantage of the one doing the sales pitch.

Another comparison -

http://wolfram.com/products/calculationcenter/why/mathematica.html

- shows CalculationCenter in relation to Mathematica, Wolfram's flagship product, which gives more information as to what a lite version doesn't do. As you mention in your post, various software is suited for different tasks. One size doesn't fit all.

VB and Excel are very powerful programs and they are relatively inexpensive. It doesn't make any sense to completely replace these progrms with Maple or Mathematica at a cost of about $1900 each, but I find it interesting the level of sophistication available in CalculationCenter for only $295.

It has changed the balance somewhat, and that's the reason I brought it up in the spreadsheet area.

Thanks for your comments,

-Mike

 

[mrMikee]

IRstuff,

Some of the big discounts on Mathcad are student versions. Also XP users should be careful which version they buy because at some point Mathcad became XP only, and I don't remember where that point is.

-Mike

 

[imagitec]

Corus wrote:

This topic appears to be a sales pitch however comparing this with a 'popular' spreadhseet

I don't think so, but I'm sure you can at least be thankful the OP didn't write:

"What's the best calculation program?" Or CAD program. Or FEA program. Or...

Rob Campbell, PE
Finite Monkeys -

http://www.livejournal.com/users/robcampbell