Career advice 2

[HVACJACK]

Searching for some guidance or good ideas.

U have never been so lost in all my life, I real these forums fairly often and figured I would include some background on my situation and what I should consider.

I graduated May 2010 with a BSME. During school I also did ROTC and had a 2 year internship sophomore/junior year for a subsidiary of Emerson making large generators and worked in facilities/maintenance- basically streamlining all the maintenance tasks and buying spare parts and helping out the facilities manger and plant manager.

bottom fell out, company halved and I lost my job- common theme but interns cant go on UI because they have no benefits, so that was May '09- lets fast forward a bit.

Graduation, Check ROTC commission- great (my army engineer officer school is slated for may 2011) and i am a reservist so for those that don't know, after you become a lieutenant you need to go to your basic officer leaders course to learn more about the specific branch you go into.

Regardless- I've got some time- I need a job and I can push this school back. I get a job offer from a PE who runs an HVAC consulting firm in Grand Cayman- offer is low as shit (Im not even going to mention numbers) but I got a free condo to live in and travel and a car to use- So I agree pack up all my "junk" and head out.

Learned a lot while I was there and really enjoyed the work- then tragedy #2 happens.. my boss dies pretty much right out of the blue...4 months in to a year long deal so this is what happens next.

I do what I can to transfer work to other engineers (most in Miami) settle all outstanding contracts- etc etc.. basically close up shop- get enough money out of a business partner of his to fly back to MN and I'm back looking for work. to top it all off I get to settle all the $ in and out for the company and I realize I am being billed at $125 an hour while I am making less than 15% of that.

This time was god awful- I interviewed at.. lets see.. Polaris, MTU onsite energy, Donaldson, Metropolitan Mechanical Contractors, Global Finishing Systems, American Crystal Sugar + phone interviews with a few places and I also had a recruiting agency submitting.

one place called me back letting me know I was #2- Thanks, but No Thanks.

In an effort to try something else I start a mechanical contracting company solely to chase gov't contracts and start as SDVOSB so I can chase affirmative action and get a leg up.. I get everything organized and approved and quoted- insurance, freight, bonding, the whole nine yards and go out and bid two jobs..

First job was a chiller changeout, old unit was contaminated and wanted to replace with a 350T air cooled model, pretty simple to do so I go ahead and bid and find out that I am about $40,000 more than the winner, (total was 199K) so when i added up the costs (unit itself was 155) extended mandatory warranty was 12.5 + add ins and labor (davis bacon) and this guy who won was putting 200K on the line to make about 4..

My uncle owns a HVAC business and said that everyone in the field right now is breaking even or sometimes taking a loss on jobs just to keep cash flow moving, pay their workers and hoping the next job will pay and make up for it. With that in mind I put the idea aside as there really is no room for any new players-- not until a few more go bankrupt anyway.

So I call up my army training and plrad with them to move my date up.. they comply and now I have a date of Jan 10, I finally get to earn a red cent after 4 months of outright despair.


So, looking back and looking forward- 2010 has been one hell of a year and thats not to say it lightly. Mental battles, a quarter life crisis, moving back home with mom and dad (I have no shame left) loss of all basic structure in my life and not a whole hell of a lot to look forward to.

Was engineering really worth it? I am having some very serious reconsiderations as all of my experiences have not been very fulfilling or encouraging... this is why I am looking for some insight.. maybe you went though a similar period in your life.. what steps did you take to hey back up on your feet again?


The new option list (I am starting my life over again) goes something like this.

1. try switch from army reserve to regular army, pros: stable income (48K/year) guaranteed promotion areas, possibility of getting to do some neat things for DoD. cons: I go where the army puts me, shit hours and infantry mentality, not engineering related- more direct management of people.


2. go to school

a law school pros: be a patent attorney, potential for $$ cons, boring, lawyers have high unemployment too, more debt

b. MBA, prob not a good idea to go on my own dime.

c. Masters in some sort of engineering, biomed or petro Pros: job opportunities cons, more debt, no guarantee it will ever pay off

d. doc school: this is too risky as the health care field is too uncertain


3. Go try and get a civilian job again, play the HR game, get laid off in 2 years, do it again.

4. try get a government job.


IF you read it all- Thanks- I need some help.

 

[Twoballcane]

If you have military equipment experience, defense contractors like Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics...etc will snap you up for sure. IMHO, that is where the best ME jobs are located. Military equipment can go thru some harsh environments.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[graybeach]

This is a really rough time. Reminds me of trying to find a job in 1983, when I graduated from college. I had to wait tables for about 6 months before I finally found a job with a state agency.

Take heart. Things will definitely get better. I work for an electrical power utility now, and we are facing a huge wave of retirements in the very near future. You may want to look into power. As a ME, you can either get into the generating equipment itself, or you can get into balance of plant which will include HVAC.

Don't be too hard on yourself about moving in with Mom and Dad. To me, you seem like a very smart person to do this under the circumstances.

Personally, I love engineering and would not trade. But my current workplace is pretty screwed up and can be very demoralizing. I am grateful to have a job that pays my bills, but it is tough knowing that I am trapped here until the economy gets better. Reading your story is a reminder that things could definately be worse. However, I truly believe that the long term outlook for engineers is very good.

 

[HVACJACK]

Lockheed, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, URS, ATK, BARR.. you name it I have probably applied for one or several positions...The holy grail of defense also has a bottomless pit for resume submission... It's tough to break in without knowing someone and with $110 Billion in defense cuts there are going to be a lot of weapon and vehicle programs cut.

The thing is, people have been saying engineering outlook is good and I hear this STEM rhetoric all the time- it just doesn't add up., I looked at the BLS numbers with a fine tooth brush and

Electrical engineers are expected to have employment growth of 2 percent
that equates to .02x 157,800= 3,156 New Jobs
Mechanical engineers are expected to have employment growth of 6 percent
that equates to .06x 238,700= 14,322 New Jobs
Aerospace engineers are expected to have 10 percent growth
that equates to .1x71,600= 7,160 New Jobs
Petroleum engineers are expected to have employment growth of 18 percent
that equates to .18 x21,900= 3,942 New Jobs
Civil engineers are expected to have employment growth of 24 percent
that equates to .24 x278,400= 66,816 New Jobs
Environmental engineers are expected to have employment growth of 31 percent
that equates to .31 x54,300= 16,833 New Jobs
Biomedical engineers are expected to have employment growth of 72 percent
that equates to .72 x16,000= 11,520 New Jobs

There numbers are from '09 so I don't know if layoffs were included or not. This is also a 10 year growth outlook.
We can twist these numbers whichever way we want- I added the net jobs because I don't trust a percentage unless its carried from the same baseline.

Point is, we graduate 70,000 engineers per year, now by government definitions that could mean all professional branches-but I doubt it. We probably have all the industrial, manufacturing technology etc. that do not require licensure. If we bring this number to around 40,000 to adjust and take a new look at the opportunities we find there will be 400K new grads with 123,750 new jobs.

So about 25% will get a job- not exactly, there are many factors at play. Attrition in older engineers will start to happen with the boomers starting to trickle out which will open up more opportunities- and then add in cheaper imported engineers on H1-B, subtract additional outsourced manufacturing, add attrition into other areas (management, sales etc), subtract those that go into grad school/academia, this has more variables than my heat transfer textbook.

I also have a hard time believing that civil engineers will have 66K new jobs.. but maybe that has something to do with projecting that construction/bridge projects and public works were going to continue at a pace consistent with 2006-09 levels where half was done with the bailout dollars.

Food for thought.

On another tangent of my brain are my niches telling me to wait it out and more will come along- I am good with air conditioning and facilities...

I think air conditioning will always have need (even if it is just repair/troubleshooting) which is why I feel I should focus my efforts there but I just don't know.

 

[JMirisola]

When I was 25, I was newly married with my first son on the way. I was working in landscape construction as a foreman at $15/hour. Not much to support a family on. Fast forward a bit and I was working in the Tech Pubs department of an equipment manufacturing company, having shifted from the assembly line. Taught myself SolidWorks. Fast forward again and I'm now a senior designer at an R&D company.
My point is this: never stop learning and growing. Forget all those numbers you're looking at regarding jobs and growth. In this economy, you need to be able to be multi-faceted. I suspect a stint in the Army would help you accomplish that, as well as provide a stable income and management training. You're still young, have a good education and seem intelligent. You'll be fine so long as you look for the good, and make sound decisions.

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
Design Manager/Senior Designer
M9 Defense
My Blog

 

[graybeach]

Maybe try hydropower agencies like the Tennessee Valley Authority.

 

[bridgebuster]

Your post sounds like a bad country music song. Just take it one day at a time; at least you have something starting in five days.

If you're an optimist, you figure the economy will rebound within the next year. You can hang in there for a year. Let's face it, the current occupant of the White House knows if it doesn't he's going to be on the unemployment line.

I saw a news blurb today that says manufacturing has been picking up; who knows. However, if the economy doesn't turn around in the next year I think we're going to see much of the same until '15.

Remember, you're a soldier; what will you do if the going really gets tough?

 

[HVACJACK]

There is some truth to that which is probably a lot of why I can take a lot of abuse.. 15 days in the woods with little sleep, a few MRE's and a rucksack will teach you how little you really need to survive..

If I had to live in a world without money I would make it but I don't see an impending apocalypse or financial ruin more than it already is.

And it's not that I am against going into the Army full time- I just want to be able to direct (somewhat) where my career is headed- If I do that I could just as easily be a commander at a Basic training or actually working at DARPA.. or someplace else- I have no control- that and the military is pretty bullheaded when decisions are made (at unit level anyhow) so politics plays a big role (but what company doesn't do this). I could very well get a great position but I can just as easily get a shit one that I am stuck at for 3-4 years. As much as I want to earn a paycheck I need to keep in mind what is after those 3-4 years.. if I stay in the Active Army I may as well do 20 (even after only 4) because my engineering skills will have atrophied by then and my only hope would be to transfer right into a managerial role. This is fairly common for captains/majors getting out.. but the trouble is that I need to decide now (or very soon) what that ultimate destination is.

This is not a pity party by any means, I know my situation- I made mistakes and I have a price to pay, simple as that. everyone goes through this in some form or another where they look around at their peers and wonder what the hell happened ( I have a friend with a 2 year nursing degree that makes $33/hr- now that is a slap in the face)

And again- money isn't everything until it is a limiter to moving ahead/forward in life and prevents you from reaching your goals which would include being able to afford to live elsewhere, someday build the house I designed, help society, etc. and its tough to do that with zero dollars so.. money is everything.

I appreciate the insights so far.. I obviously have way too much time on my hands to think about this so i'll go burn off a few calorie on the treadmill.

 

[bridgebuster]

You're out of school for seven months and you're writing yourself off? It's good to set goals but it sounds like you're being too rigid. As you go on in life goals change; unforeseen opportunities arise; you take a risk and go down another road; life happens.

"One day at a time"

"The journey of 1000 miles starts with one step"

"Do you know how to make God laugh? Tell him your plans."

 

[Twoballcane]

Sorry HVACJACK, welcome to the real world. Pick one and don’t look back (HAVC or the military). If you keep hesitating, the opportunities will slip by
"I just want to be able to direct (somewhat) where my career is headed"
Well I guess the question is where do you want your career to go? It sounds like HVAC, so focus on that. Are you planning to get your PE? Have you taken your EIT yet? What you can control is how you present and sell yourself. You are your own company in a sense. How would you get your customers to buy you and your skill set (at any level). You can also control your networking skills and engagements. Have you been going to any job fairs, professional organizations, or conventions? Have you offered to have coffee with other engineers to gain their insights? You have control on how your resume looks and feels. Does it say professional or high school kid who just whipped up a boring resume?

Unless you’re coming from MIT, you’re experiencing what every other Engineering graduate is going thru including me when I graduated. It took me a year and a half to get hired by a real engineering company after college. Before that, I did 8 months as a field engineer (glorified field tech), but persistence and tenacity will pay off just as long you pick one and move forward.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[HVACJACK]

I am a bit misleading there- I do want to be an engineer first and foremost, that is what I mean when I say I want to be able to dictate the direction of my career. If I go Military that option has about a 30% shot at making it.

I supposed even if you do not carry the title- you are always an engineer.

I really enjoy HVAC and building science and it is my niche-
but the problem again is that nobody is hiring or building. Ideally the way to go would be to combine the two and work for Army Installation Management or be a contracting officers representative, these two are more realistic than working at Army research or similar since those usually require you to be a Major and up. I should be able to pull it off.

For all intents and purposes I just made my decision.. I'm going to focus my efforts on going active duty or AGR.. a military career doesn't start paying as good but you cant beat the benefits down the road.

 

[beej67]

My wife is on contract with GSA. Not a direct government employee, but hired to fill a role through her company.

The way she tells it, GSA must give priority hiring to military folks, regardless of their experience. Which in part is why they like to hire companies to contract with - that way they actually get to pick who they want to do the work. But if you're a military guy and a good engineer, I suspect "4 - Government Job" is going to be your best bet.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[HVACJACK]

yes/no to last post

I have just over 4 years .. 6 months for basic/AIT then did SMP program with reserves and ROTC and then comission into USAR, thats a bunch of acronyms but basically.. as a reservist I do not have enough active duty days to get veterans preference. Also never deployed because of ROTC and still non deployable until I finish EBOLC.

Employers will never admit it but you have to plead with them now to hire national guard/reserve soldiers, two interviews kept being persistent on wanting to know what my obligation was. Would you hire someone that couldn't come in two weeks out of the year when two wars are going on and sometime within the next three years he/she would be gone for sure for a month, its a losing battle if I go into details so I just try my best to leave it out of the discussion even though it has been a major commitment in my life. Same as age, marital status etc etc.. I'm not going to use it as a crutch as to why I didn't get hired (maybe the umpteen million experienced engineers has more to do with it) but its worth noting nonetheless.

And the GSA role is probably a direct advantage liaison or contracting officer role, probably mandated by GSA to have a rep at the company. I looked into some of this but I really have no desire to work in logistics/supply chain /acquisitions even if that is where I ultimately end up.

 

[dvd]

option 1.

If your uncle runs a union shop, see if he will get you in the pipefitter or sheetmetal apprentice program. Learn the trade always with an eye on moving forward, not getting stuck in a rut. Move into the front office detailing, estimating, engineering and selling. Buy the company, move to the Bahamas and open a new branch. Don't step on any rainbows.

option 2.

Become an artist. You know how to live without money. If you are going to be starving, the women are much more fun for a starving artist than a starving engineer.

 

[Twoballcane]

I am not in the HVAC field, but I would think getting your EIT should be your first thing to get. I would think you would need the PE to sign off designs for buildings. That is somthing you can control that can guid your career.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[Gumpmaster]

What occupational specialty are you in the Army? That makes a difference as to where you can be stationed and the jobs available. Service in the DC area may be pretty interesting.

Don't write off going back into engineering after 4 years in the military. I did it (5 years army, then 2 years grad schoor, now a mid level engineer), and it has worked out great. The actual military experience (not just Reserve/ROTC experience) added a bunch of life experience that helps greatly in managing people and projects.

My vote is for go active, wait 4 years until the economy is more settled, then go back into engineering.

 

[HVACJACK]

Trouble trouble trouble.

I do have my EIT by the way, manufacturing companies seem to care less about the thing- consulting engineers definitely do so until I get specific to one industry I don't know if I am going to need my P.E. or not, its something I would like to eventually get though.

I am a 12A- Engineer officer, (enlisted guys get MOS's- officers get branches) An "engineer" in the Army is not typically a degreed engineer- typically a technician with building/route clearance and demolition missions.

The way to transition into Active from Reserve is through the "call to active duty" program, right now they are only taking Majors so I am SOL. Troop cuts are bound to happen in the very near future so things are going to get shaken up a bit.

A few slots are opening up in engineer districts for juniors captains.. I don't know if they are taking LT's or not, It would probably be futile to try to fight the Army career progression system.

There are even more stupid things to ponder with all of this but I'm not going to worry about it. I need to focus on the next four months now and not worry about the "big picture" any longer.

 

[GregLocock]

"It would probably be futile to try to fight the Army career progression system."

Um, yes. Learn how it works and use it. Same applies in any large organisation.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[DerPumpeMeister]

I feel for you, HVACJACK. You sound like you are not afraid of hard work but the past year has been tough.

I am always pro-education, but your opening post is correct; you will need to spend money now on the hope of making more in the future. The military is always a plus to have on your resume and does provide good life/work experience.

Network as much as you can. Word of mouth is still one of the most efective paths to finding a job. I just replied to another post and mentioned the group Toastmasters. In my local group, out of the 15 regular members 4 of us are engineers. Most people in Toastmasters are professional and may provide some contacts.

If there are any industry conferences or trade shows nearby, try to go. You can come home with a pocketful of business cards and a slick way to introduce yourself in a cover letter ("I was speaking with your sales manager...").

I wish you the best and hope you find something soon. Stay positive.

http://www.EngineeringGuideBook.com

 

[gadkinsj]

They are doing alot of building in China, India, South America. It sounds like you are a prime candidate for one of those 200k for 18 months in Iraq contracts that float around since you have no ties. And if you are in a position to get shot might as well make 200k versus 40k + hazard pay.

Also. Lots of jobs in Alaska that unattached recently graduated engineers are perfectly suited to. I took a position for 2 years for about 125% of normal starting pay plus free housing and free meals. I saved alot of that money since I had nothing else to do but work 12 hours a day. I came back with student loans paid and 50k in the bank. Almost ready to drag my wife up there and do that again.