Career direction and overlap with existing position 2

[MedMan123]

Good afternoon,

My situation:
I am currently working in an automotive testing facility as a software engineer. When I started 2 years ago there was promise of career advancement, pay advancement, .. etc. I started at 45K, was promised 55K (should have got it in writing), and then we all got a pay chop, I'm at 39K now. This is based on a salaried position where you pretty much are expected to work 50 hrs a week.

Background:
I have an undergrad in EE, a Master's in control systems, and 4 years engineering work experience (in manufacturing, energy, and software development).

Anyway, 4 of my good study group friends from University have moved 4 hrs North of me to work at Bruce Power in Ontario. They've been trying to get me to move up there for over a year now. Up until our paycut I had been reluctant because I'd like to stay in my hometown and enjoy my current job. Now I'm interested in moving, because I can barely make the bills. I'm just renting and don't yet own a house so there's nothing really tying me to my current location.

The positions I am applying for at Bruce involve nuclear simulator modeling, which is a good overlap to my master's degree (which involved modeling and hardware-in-the-loop simulation) and current work experience.

This position would pay 70-80K based on 35 hrs / week plus overtime, with benefits (I currently have no benefits). Certainly a no brainer in what decision to make here if I'm offered that or a similar position in the near future.

Anyway, my real question is in regards to how I should deal with overlap at my current job.

At my current job, I'm the only one who does what I do, and I have become fairly critical in many facets of the company (I have good job security).

Since my position is software and I could technically work from home ( I sometimes do) I'm wondering if it might be worth investigating to see if they might consider keeping me on as part-time/contract work long distance (they currently do this with another software engineer in another division of the company.)

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

 

[SLTA]

if your salary were raised at the current company, and benefits given, would you stay there? perhaps go talk with your current company, explain your situation with money and being critical, and see what they say.

be sure to be open with both companies about what you'd be doing to avoid any conflict of interest issues.

and good luck!

 

[MedMan123]

Although I am liked by the boss and am important to the company, with the companies currently financial situation, I somehow doubt anything near a doubling of salary would be on the table.

Getting raises around here past your starting salary was apparently was like pulling teeth , and that's when times were better for the auto industry.

But you're right, it couldn't hurt to see if they would make a counter-offer.

 

[livingston]

I would first be solidify the offer at the other company before saying anything. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Especially in this economy!

 

[ash9144]

Get a solid offer from the power company. Then you need to decide which you want to work for. I would not go fishing for a counter offer from current employer. If they match precisely what the other offer is I imagine that would complete your raises with that company for the rest of your career. If you decide to leave then leave don't be tempted to stay by counter offer.

As for overlap or transition, they existed before you got there and they'll exist when you leave. Turn in your badge keys and parking pass then head north.

 

[PeterStock]

I think you will be to busy with getting up to speed with the new position to spend a lot of time with the old one. If you do get them to keep you part time, then make sure they are ok with the limited hours you would be able to put in. Also be sure there would be little or no need to take time from your new job to service the old. If I was your new employer, I would not like it if you took off for an urgent meeting out of town.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

 

[HamishMcTavish]

I don't know what the position is in the states but in the UK the usual is a notice period equal to the salary payment frequency so if you're paid monthly then a months notice.

Let them sort it out, it's just business. They have allowed themselves to rely upon a single employee in a critical position. It reminds me of a farside cartoon where two cavemen are standing outside their caves beyond which is a glacier, the caption is something like "hey tharg, wall of ice closer today?" Companies are notorious for ignoring things like succession planning, what would happen if you got knocked down by a bus tomorrow - they would be in the same situation.

I wouldn't try to work two jobs - firstly because of what someone else said, you really want to focus on getting up the learning curve at the new position and secondly because you'd be earning about twice as much for less hours so i would use it to enjoy life rather than spending all your spare time working your old job (out of guilt or some misplaced sense of loyalty?)

Hope you make the right choice, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[KENAT]

Dont' worry about overlap, it doesn't sound like you place deserves much special treatment unless...

You are able to get enough money out of them to make providing some kind of transition assistance worthwhile to you.

I did something vaguely similar when I moved to the states, still did some work for my old company in the UK. Difference was I didn't have a job in the US for a while and wasn't balancing both.

However, if you get the new job then be ready for your old employer not to be interested in your transition offer.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[ajack1]

In the UK at least most companies will have the amount of notice both the employer and employee have to give as part of the contact. For any key member of staff this will usually be between three – six months, if you are doing the engineering equivalent of flipping burgers it will probably be around one month if you are flipping burgers it will be a week or less. This is how companies do their succession planning.

I really do not understand the logic of Medman123, if in this current economic climate you can find a company that is willing to double your money for 15 hours less work a week you then plan to say to them thanks for that but do you mind if I don’t give this job my full attention as I wish to carry on working part time for my old company?

I know what my answer would be.

 

[MedMan123]

Ajack,
The company I work for has an "employment at will" contract.


They give no notice when they can people, so employees need not give any notice at all (though I would like to, I'm a bit afraid they might just escort me out of the building). However, since the manager likes me and I've heard of previous engineers giving notice in the past, I think I worry a little too much about that.

Thanks all for your thoughts on this matter so far.

I'm working further on this "project Homer" (though I suspect this plant is run in a more efficient manner than Burns') as I call it, prospects look very good so far.

At this point in time, I'm thinking it would probably be best if I did not bring up the "transition deal" to my current employer unless they brought it up.

 

[SparknMike]

While being gentle and professional with your employer is a great thing; do not be tempted to do things wrong to further protect them. You need to give them appropriate notice, after having secured a better position, and if the appropriate notice places your employer in peril then it isn't really your problem.

It isn’t necessarily a bad idea to discuss the difficulties of your financial situation with your employer, and to do so right now! They will likely explain to you that this is a common problem in the company and perhaps share a few personal difficulties. If you do this, don’t go in demanding or pushing, but just sharing that this is putting you in a difficult position. If they aren’t being completely forward about their ability to give raises then they may help you out. If not, you have prepared them for the next step. The only danger in this action is that if they have to make difficult decisions for a layoff you could suddenly become a target.

When you do give notice and they are faced with losing you they may find room to do things they would have never discussed when they have a choice. This is always a difficult situation because your current employer may suddenly give the best offer but only after facing the realities of their pay structure and organizational chart. Something to keep in mind, if you are faced with this situation, is that the conditions that lead to your departure still exist. Today they may have the best offer on the table, and in a few years they may cut your pay again or become very elusive when discussing further raises. When considering everything, honestly look at where each company is likely to take you over the next five years.

On the subject of immediate termination; most employers I have seen that immediately escort an employee out of the building still pay them for what they consider to be a normal notice. Employees often take this very hard but something to consider is that outgoing employees behave according to their own professionalism, and professionalism varies widely. I have had employees that worked hard till their last day and helped transition their work to other employees. I have also had employees that did very little and poisoned other employees to the point they left within a few months. In those cases I would have been far ahead had I escorted them out of the building immediately after they provided their notice.

If you intend to spend your last few weeks taking it easy and explaining to all of your coworkers how bad their employer is and how much better off they would be if they left then don't be surprised if you are thrown out of the building. If they ask you to leave anyways, don't take it personally since many managers establish this policy after being burned by a few characters.

When you leave, keep in contact with the people at your old company. I would not attempt to continue working for them after leaving your full time position. You don't really know how much time and focus you will need to do your new job well. After you are comfortable with your new position you could discuss taking on some additional work from your old employer. Another benefit to this approach is that your old employer will not be tempted to give you enough work to cover your old position. This would certainly overload you and affect your performance for both companies.

Once you get going in your new position you may realize that you don't want to work extra hours for extra money. After spending a number of years having my weekends and evenings often and randomly consumed by my employer I would greatly value a job that is only 35 hours a week and never takes my nights or weekends.

 

[MikeHalloran]

As of now, you're being paid half what you're worth. Considering benefits, less.
Don't you find that insulting?
Of course they love you; you work dirt cheap.

Get the other offer in writing.
Accept it.
Say good bye to your friends.
Give notice.
Leave with no regrets.
Don't offer a transition plan of any kind.
Don't accept a transition plan of any kind unless it includes a large lump of money.

NEVER ACCEPT A COUNTER OFFER.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[MedMan123]

Thank you all for your valuable insight and opinions.

I think both of the Mike's have very good points here.

And yes, I do find the salary insulting. Since I should have got the raise in the first place, the pay cut was definitely adding insult to injury.

And I like to think of myself as very profession in most ways, and am doing my best to continue to work hard at my current job and prepare as much as I can to make the possible loss of me easier.

 

[MedMan123]

An update:

I got the screening call for the 1st position I applied for, and will set-up an interview in the next 2 weeks.

I applied for 2 positions (one with a more hardware focus, the other software/model development) and found out from the recruiter there are 2 of the software positions available. Plus a couple of my friends who work there are getting my information out there for other upcoming positions.

Keeping my fingers crossed! and preparing for the interview.

-Matt

 

[MedMan123]

I figured I would add an update to my previous thread instead of making a new one.

Although I did not get the position back in June, I applied to Ontario Power Generation (Graduate Nuclear Opportunities) this summer.

I had an interview (group recruitment event) this past week and am awaiting an offer (keeping my fingers crossed). They mentioned multiple times they are hiring a bunch of people(as a high % of both their technical and management staff are approaching retirement).

Before I left the event they mentioned to email the coordinator if we had another offer before Dec 1st , which was the date we'd hear back either way by. This way, they could expedite their decision so you could consider both offers.

Anyway, on to my real dilemma (although in this day and age I guess it's not too bad of a situation to be in):

I had a 2 part phone interview with an Aerospace engineering firm (specializing in controls) this week as well.

The president of the company emailed me back requesting a followup in-person interview with the customer at the customer's facility (which I've accepted), and mentioned it was just for the customer followup, I'd already been cleared by their systems engineering department to hire.

This job is for controls design, analysis and hardware simulation (similar to what I did my master's in). I think it would be an excellent opportunity based on my conversations with the president and department managers; apparently the company is doing very well despite the market due to them fitting a niche very well. However, the job at the Nuclear Plants would also be an excellent opportunity in it's own right; OPG has excellent pay, working hours, time off, benefits, etc as well as a variety of career opportunities. I'm planning on starting a family in the near future, so there's a lot to consider.

My thoughts and questions:

I know OPG's pay and benefits (as it was outlined for us), and I'm on the fence about which position I'd rather have (both sound interesting).

I'm not sure if I'm going to be offered the job at the Aerospace firm, but I have a good feeling. I am going to meet the president and department manager at their facility afterwords (although no formal interview is required).

I know I definitely would like to discuss the starting salary, benefits,working hours, etc which have to be good enough to justify me and my wife relocating to an area with somewhat higher cost of living (mainly real estate). I don't think I should mention that I have another potential offer at another company, but it's going to be in the back of my mind certainly (as the opportunity at the Nuclear Plant would definitely be worth the move).

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated, I'm still kind of new to this

 

[KENAT]

Why wouldn't you raise the question of compensation at the interview? The interview is a 2 way street, while it tends to be the employer that asks the most questions you should also look at it as you interviewing them. If nothing else at the end of most interviews they normally ask if they have any questions and you could ask then. Often at an inteview they wont know/discuss the details etc. but you may be able to get a general idea.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[MedMan123]

Kenat,

I didn't have time during the 20 minute phone interview to discuss compensation (though I definitely should have thought of it and brought it up). The interviewer did briefly ask for my my minimum salary expectations interjected within the other questions (I mentioned $65K), but that's all. I guess I'll have to go from there; I'd of course like a somewhat larger starting salary, but growth potential is important too.

Since they accepted that with a followup interview I think I should have mentioned a somewhat larger figure (though I didn't want to get myself totally out of the ballpark).

However, this followup interview is with the client/customer, so I guess I'll have to play it a bit by ear when I meet with the employer at their facility afterwords.

 

[NomLaser]

For future reference, from my years of interviewing experience, never give them a salary expectation. Always turn the question back around on the interviewer and ask them what their expected salary range would be. They have a value in their mind and, by asking that question, they are trying to see how much value you place on your work and if it is lower than what they intended on paying.

You back yourself into a corner by giving out an expected pay range. If you are too high then they will feel that there's no way that you will take their lower offer. If you are too low then they will adjust what they were willing to give you and you will be on the low end of the pay scale.

And never lie about your current salary. They can check and if they do then it will be a red flag. If you are being paid far less than what you should be, you can explain how you received a pay cut and tell them what the salary was before the cut. Just try not to put the other company in a bad light.

 

[MedMan123]

Thanks for the advice NomLaser. Things have been moving quickly lately and I don't think I gave it enough thought beforehand. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

 

[MedMan123]

A follow-up:

I got an offer for the Aerospace controls gig: the salary was slightly higher than the minimum I mentioned, which I'll take as a good sign.

Now, I have to wait to see if I get the offer from the power company (hopefully they'll get back to me very soon) and make my decision from there.

If I get both, then I have to decide which to accept.

The initial offers are similar (~65K), both are hourly positions with paid overtime (which is good because working 50 hours a week without extra compensation gets old after a while). Both have benefits included at no charge.

Both career paths I believe would be excellent opportunities.