Cellulose ethanol 3

[0707]

Bio diesels are not new Brasil are great producers but, Richard Branson announced Virgin Fuel as a revolutionary Fuel.

Richard Branson He said “cellulose ethanol "is the by-product you get from the waste product (of plants), the bits in the field that get burned up," as opposed to ethanol which is produced from fruit or corn for example.”

Cellulose ethanol exhibits net energy content three times higher than corn ethanol and emits a low net level of greenhouse gases.

Some challenges of cellulose ethanol are: Corn requires an abundance of fertilizer to grow and carbon dioxide is emitted during ethanol production. The biggest opportunity for expanded production of ethanol will be from cellulose resources, however, this process is very expensive. The advancement and development of technologies for cellulose ethanol production is critical to expanding use of this fuel.

Luis

 

[ewh]

Bring back hemp, which is quite high in cellulose content, as well as oil (from seeds).

 

[oldfieldguy]

ewh--

Hey, with the proper variety of hemp, energy use will fall 'way down, because nobody will want to go anywhere...

old field guy

 

[KENAT]

I thought the point of using the cellulose method was that you could take pretty much any vegetable matter put it through the cellulose break down process that turns the cellulose into sugar then put it through basically the regular ethanol process.

Doesn't have to be Corn or any current major cash crop. Basically you want to find the fastest growing/most efficient crop you can. I believe Switch Grass is one option being looked at although it is less energy dense (more acerage required for same energy) than corn although it takes less energy (fertilizer etc) to grow.

I believe you can also use what would otherwise be by product, straw, mulch etc.

 

[ewh]

oldfieldguy,
... except to the grocers.

 

[oldfieldguy]

KENAT--

That's a good point. If we extract energy from the soil in the form of one crop or another, in a very short time the nutrients in the soil will be depleted and yields will go down. Then in order to increase yields, we have to get busy with adding fertilizers, at some expense of energy, and more intensive farming techniques, again with more expense of energy.

Anything less is pretty much the "slash and burn" farming methods used by semi-nomadic peoples the world over. Look at The Dust Bowl in the '20's. Those Okies didn't sart out with the intent of being nomadic, but the failures of crops due in part to tired soil turned them into nomads...

old field guy

 

[owg]

0707 states "Cellulose ethanol exhibits net energy content three times higher than corn ethanol and emits a low net level of greenhouse gases"
An optimistic estimate of the net energy of ethanol is zero! Not a good basis for x times claims.

HAZOP at

http://www.curryhydrocarbons.ca

 

[KENAT]

oldfieldguy I'm sure it's just a slip but significant 'energy' isn't extracted from the soil. The energy comes from sunlight and the 'matter' mostly comes from CO2 in atmosphere. The nutrients in the soil are minor contributors to mass, however as you say if they run out it causes problems to crop growth. Proper crop rotation and managed grazing reduces this problem.

owg I think 0707 meant in comparison to ethanol from just the grain. If you make ethanol from just the grain and throw the rest of the plant you get x usable chemical energy in ethanol. If you use the whole plant using cellulose break down methods then you get 3x usable energy. I don't think he was proposing breaking laws of thermodynamics.

If you mean the fact that some reports suggest that it takes as much energy to grow & process the corn as you get back from the ethanol that's another matter. Even if this is true it could still be a useful energy transformation method. If all the energy used to create the ethanol was from say wind (be it via electrical), and the ethanol used to run a vehicle this may still have enough advantages in certain situations over a land yacht or electric vehicle to make it worthwhile.

 

[0707]

Thus, the future of ethanol may depend on whether it can compete with crude oil on its own merits.

The concept of a bio refinery is modelled after petrochemical refineries, with production of multiple products at a single facility. Existing bio refineries include wet-mill corn processing and pulp and paper mills. As with petrochemical refineries, the vision is that the bio refinery would integrate several conversion processes to produce both transportation fuel (ethanol and bio diesel) and high-value chemicals or products, including ones that would otherwise be made from petroleum. Industrial bio refineries have been identified as the most promising route to the creation of a new domestic bio based industry.

Biomass would be classified as “Hard lignocellulose” (woody lignocellulose), “Soft ignocellulose” (herbaceous lignocellulose and dried excrement), “Starchy biomass” (rich in starch), and “Liquid biomass” (oils, black liquor and waste water rich in organics).

Should the secret of Virgin fuel be, to produce ethanol from a mix of human dried wastes mixed with herbaceous matter?

This is not new and most of the countries have policies of 3% to %5-bio diesel addition into fossil fuels

Richard Branson says:

“It will be called Virgin Fuel, yes! It's not ethanol-based as such, but it'll be a clean fuel. And if we've got it right, it could be a very important breakthrough. We think this fuel will work in cars and trucks and trains within a year. And we're hoping that it might work in commercial jet engines within five years, possibly sooner. So it will be able to work in Virgin Atlantic planes one day.”

What would it be?

Luis Marques

 

[YoungTurk]

Perhaps I've missed something, but to my knowledge no large scale efficient (relatively efficient compared to sugar based methods, that is) method of conversion of cellulose to ethanol has been demonstrated. There is only a limited class of organisms that can break down cellulose and for reasons beyond me they are not compatible to a commercial ethanol process.

"Cellulose molecules consist of long chains of glucose molecules as do starch molecules, but have a different structural configuration. These structural characteristics plus the encapsulation by lignin makes cellulosic materials more difficult to hydrolyze than starchy materials.
...
Since 5-carbon sugars comprise a high percentage of the available sugars, the ability to recover and ferment them into ethanol is important for the efficiency and economics of the process. Recently, special microorganisms have been genetically engineered which can ferment 5-carbon sugars into ethanol with relatively high efficiency. "

thats from:

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-017.html

I'm guessing they've got something, probably an engineered yeast, bacteria, or fungi which they believe they can use for a commercial scale conversion.

 

[YoungTurk]

Here's a better reference:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2003/dien03a.pdf

 

[YoungTurk]

At the risk of looking like an idiot for posting thrice in a row, let me add to the above discussion regarding the practicality of this: There are many many underutilized sources of cellulose. Just look at all the plant material produced as a byproduct of corn, wheat and the other mega-crops. Not to mention the possibilities of bamboo and the like.

 

[KENAT]

I recal some of the initial research was based on the fact that 'organic' equipment of US troops in pacific WWII would tend to rot. If I recall correctly the bacteria/fungus that caused this was found to turn the cellulose into sugar.

 

[moltenmetal]

The proof's in the pudding: lots of development effort has been expended in relation to cellulose ethanol, but to my knowledge nobody out there is producing it in commercial quantities as a fuel- yet.

Does it have potential? Sure. Unlike corn ethanol, it definitely has the potential to produce significantly more energy in fuel output than it consumes in fuel inputs. Why? Because there is a hell of a lot more cellulose in plant biomass than there is starch.

Does cellulose ethanol production have problems? Sure. Just like any other means of collecting and storing solar energy for use, cellulose ethanol has its share of problems, both in the refining and the source ethanol production area. These explain the delay in commercialization. And if it ever takes off, unsustainable agricultural practices WILL be used to produce the source cellulose. Why? Because, given our screwed-up inequitable "economics", these practices are "cheaper".

Until we're prepared to pay the full and fair cost of the energy we consume, including a tax/penalty for the emissions our fuel consumption produces, the cheapest fuel will remain the one we can pump out of a hole in the ground, or dig out of a hole in the ground.

 

[0707]

Grappa, whisky, Tequila, Ruhn, olive oil, beer and caw shit all this mix will give a great green fuel!

 

[0707]

For The World Energy Outlook 2006:

go to

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10007958.shtml

 

[stephenw22]

Commercial Cellulose Ethanol

http://www.iogen.ca

They already have a $30 million pilot facility built that makes a million gallons of ethanol per year, and they'd like to start building a bigger ($250 million) commercial plant.

 

[civilperson]

0707Petroleum
I disagree with the statement comparing ethanol made from grain to cellulose ethanol. The energy available is identical since the ethanol is identical in chemical composition. What the modifier "net" means could put some truth into that statement, if the cellulose based ethanol used no fuel to plant, cultivate or harvest and the process plant was more energy efficient. Otherwise, all ethanol is the same and resembles what gives my beer its kick.

 

[GregLocock]

If you have cellulose waste that you were going to burn or leave to rot then there is an advantage to turning that into ethanol, compared with using the non-waste crop product.

However you only come out ahead if the extra energy required to turn that waste into ethanol is less than the energy content made to grow the original crop.

Due to the lower sugar content of cellulose waste, and the difficulty of accessing the conents of each cell, that is not necessarily a slam-dunk.

Of course one question you need to always ask is what your aim is - reducing oil usage, or reducing greenhouse emissions, or saving money? They are not the same thing at all.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[SnTMan]

"Of course one question you need to always ask is what your aim is"...

EXACTLY. Things that make sense for one set of goals may not for another.

Ragards,

Mike