Changes in Quality of MEP consulting engineering work over the years

[RobsVette]

Hey guys,

I work at a Mechanical Contractor in NYC and I hear alot of the older people (I am 29 years old) complain about the declining quality of the engineering drawings we get for our projects (mostly commercial HVAC in manhattan.)

Supposedly, they claim that the downhill slide began in the late 1980s. There is a general feeling at our company that the drawings that are produced for many of the new commercial buildings are geared more towards being able to get bids quicker and speed up the front end process as opposed to being a complete set of documents that you can actually use to build a project from. I do admit that most of the drawings we see are pretty poor. Many have piping sized wrong, pumps that are incorrectly sized and in general very poor layout drawings. It does seem that the flow diagrams, specifications, physical diagrams and details we get never match.

I am wondering if anyone who has been around for some time has noticed this as well. And if so, what are the possible reasons for this?

The only thing I can think of is that was when the first cad programs where introduced and with them came cad operators who were not well versed in engineering, but more focused on computer science and programming. Is there anything else that may have affected this?

Rob

 

[SNORGY]

In general it is symptomatic of a generalized commoditization of engineering that began, in my mind, 40 years ago. Competitive bidding, profit focus, less mentorship, and the migration of - as you state in different words - skill sets from being a "designer" to being a "CAD Monkey". The latter is exacerbated by the proliferation of computer based software that, while wonderful when correctly used, also contribute to the general decay and gradual extinction of people who actually know how to do stuff.

HVAC is not the only sector suffering from these phenomena.

 

[DRWeig]

Profit focus, good choice of words Snorgy.

It comes from both sides. The building owner makes more profit if the building opens earlier. Therefore, we see really unreasonable design schedules.

The boss accepts the job and schedule because the company will reap the same fee with less calendar time, and hence, less salary expense.

The actual designers work 16-hour days and do all they can, but the time frame is too short.

It can turn a skilled engineer into a skilled addendum-writer.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

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[cdxx139]

I feel this post will get interesting....

I have not been around very long, but I do feel the engineering product that is issued can be of higher quality. I am trying to resolve this from a personal level, but with the rush the industry is, I am finding a hard time getting there.

On the flip side, some older engineers around here tell me that before things were able to get built with a lot less engineering detail on the drawings. You engineered the intent, and the contractor was able to build it so it met the intent.

Now I feel contractors are looking for drawings they can build from, when the contract drawings are really a guide to get there, and the contractor built "coordiantion drawings" are what they should be building from.

Great topic though, and should get some good discussions here.

knowledge is power

 

[willard3]

I have been around for almost 40 years and Engineering drawings and documents have changed for the worse.

I continue to do what I was trained to do which includes things like control diagrams on drawings. I probably don't get paid as much as people who don't detail to this extent, but it makes the project go sooooo much easier and better and it pleases me.....I am proud of my work.

Engineers and other professionals in the construction trades have allowed themselves to be treated as contractors and it is no wonder that owners take advantage of it. If professionals bid on work, owners will always take advantage of the low bid regardless of quality.

 

[Drazen]

yes, things are always changing, bit of it to the worse, but not everything, now there are some many calculations which are more complex than ever before, and whatever trouble software causes, calculation programs enabled some days-long calculations to be performed within an hour and properly checked within one more hour.

of course, there are many examples of software abuse in sense that more and more people are used to click the buttons, make all data input and take results for granted, which is really improper approach.

from what i could observe in practice, there is one thing that degrades design documents more than anything else: rush, rush, rush.

rushing contractors is very different from rushing designers. contractor can extend shifts or add one more shift and do the job much quicker without sacrifying quality significantly.

designer cannot act in the same manner. be it small or large design team, you cannot simply delegate addition work to one more engineer, because familiarization with project often takes much longer for designer.

it is also not possible to extend your daily work to 15 hours so simply. sometimes i work in very large hours contingent, and as long as i am focused enough, it is even better not to make pause, at least until you finish some functional part. in some other day any of us can feel that energy and concentration cannot be retained, and extending your hour too much can lead to danger of large errors.

working as site engineer in hasty environment, sometimes i can spend almost two shifts without even noticing, when things are quite dramatic. with design work it does not go that way, however.

many project managers do not understand it, especially those who though claiming multidisciplinary experience actually do not have full grip of actual design process "from the bottom".

rushing design work the same way as contractor work is rushed sometimes lead to terrible major project problems that cost really much. and lessons learned seem to still reside in some companies only, not as a common knowledge.

 

[MechEngNCPE]

I have been in the industry only ten years but after becoming familiar with existing facility MEP drawings I can tell you that the quality of design documents has gone downhill. I believe it is 90% schedule driven. As a MEP design engineer I have witnessed project managers who have the "two week" answer for everything whenever the client wants a package (in the small to mid range project size). It is insane - I have seen a client laugh in his face when they were expecting a two month turn around.

Another thing to note is what was mentioned before - contractors have responsibility to construct the project from the documents provided but they are not meant to be knat's ass detailed. The contractor still has to do some work with routing, FIELD VERIFYING, etc. We can not be expected to avoid all possible conflicts simply because the schedule won't allow it - especially with hidden conditions.

I could go on and on...