Clarification on US and Canadian Engineers 17

[etch]

I read all these forums and find the sharing of ideas extremely helpful and informative, I would like to know about being licienced in northern America.

Is it compulsory?
do you have to take insurance out on yourself to protect against tort of negligance or substandard work, who pick the tab up is it the work or yourself.

Does this accreditation allow you to work anywhere in US?

WHy have it? (advantages/Disadvantages)

Can you work without one?

I read alot about people saying if they discover unethical practices , its thier legal duty to report it or they face expulsion. DOes this happen?

Is there different bodies?

Just to give you a comparison, we dont really have anything of the same idea over here, we have professional bodies like Institute of Engineers, but alot of the time its more a badge than an actual living body enforcing policy.

 

[swertel]

First of all, where is "over here"?

Is it compulsory?
A PE, P.E., PEng, CEng, or whatever you abbreviate is usually not required for private industry. Government organizations often require an engineer to have a license before certain job duties can be assigned.
So far, liability insurance for engineers is relatively low compared to that of a doctor or lawyer. I personally haven't priced it yet because I'm still a short time away from sitting for the PE exam (USA-AZ). Some engineers take out an insurance policy on themselves to make sure they always have enough. Most PE's that I know won't stamp any company work unless the company is paying for their insurance.

Does this accreditation allow you to work anywhere in US? Can you work without one?
For the US, each state has its own certification board. You have to pass each states requirements to be licensed in that state. Typically, when you get your licensure in one state, you can get licensure in other state through recipricity/committee. Still a tough process, but better than taking the PE exam 50 times.
You can work without a license in certain fields. Others require a PE. The reason to have it is to open doors for those areas that require it as well as show employers and peers that you hold yourself to the high standard of engineer.

http://www.nspe.org

has some great information about professional engineers and their ethics. So YES, if a licensed PE sees another licensed PE doing something unethical, it is the responsibility of the ethical engineer to report the unethical one. Much like if you see a student post at eng-tips, you red-flag. Don't comment, don't make a fuss, just report it and let the governing agency sort it out.

Is [Are] there different bodies?
As stated earlier, in the US, each state has its own licensing board. Each country outside the US also has their own. There is not one international society, although each society has many similarities.

--Scott

 

[Watermelon]

Is it compulsory? Generally speaking, yes. It MIGHT not be compulsory if you work in private industry and only design things "inside the business." As soon as you offer your services to the public at large, then it is compulsory.

Do you need errors and omissions insurance? Where I live, yes. We believe that if you do not have insurance, then you are not fully portecting your client, and that would be unprofessional. It is my own personal opinion that if you are practicing engineering without insurance, you are MAD.

Who pays for the insurance? It doesn't matter. That is up to you to figure out. Make sure your boss is paying for it or include it in the cost of doing business with your clients.

Does this accreditation allow you to work anywhere? No. You must be licenced in the geographic area where you will be practicing.

Why have it? Generally speaking, it is against the law to practice engineering without a licence. Penalties are substantial. I wouldn't want a surgeon to operate on me if he had no licence. I would not want an engineer to design my new building if he had no licence.

Can you work without one? Generally speaking, no. If you are not a licenced engineer, very few people will recognize and respect you as an engineer.

Is it an engineer's duty to report other engineers? Yes. When a professional engineer finds evidence of another engineer acting unprofessionally (negligence, incompetence to name a few concerns) he is required to report it. If he fails to report it, then he himself might be found guilty of misconduct.

Are there different bodies? Yes. The State of New York has its own governing body, and the Province of Nova Scotia has its own as well.

 

[Hush]

Canada has different regulations than the USA.

Registration is mandatory for practice in Canada, whether private, public, or non-profit. You cannot practice without it, leastwise not legally.

Each province or territory has its own association. You must be registered in the province or territory you are practising in. Transferring registration or multiple registration is for the most part fairly painless within Canada once you've attained professional status, although it will cost you for each province (no buy two get the third free).

Professional insurance is usually not required unless you're practising on your own, in which case you'd be a fool not to have it. On the other hand there are no punitive damages in Canada, so lawsuits are nowhere near as frequent or as large as they can be in the States.

There are numerous disciplinary actions taken every year by each association. The associations have the same power as a judicial court. Probably most result in no finding, some with sanctions and / or fines, and a few with suspensions.

NAFTA was supposed to make it easier to gain registration across the border into the USA. Don't know if it has, I've never worried about it since I've always been covered by the industrial exemption any time I've worked there.

As to Mexico, I don't know anything but I'm curious. I hope someone can fill us in.

 

[buzzp]

I assume your question relates to consulting engineers only. None of these rules will apply for any other engineer I can think of. If your designing products for a company you work for, you do not need a PE to do it and the benefits of a PE are minimal. If your a consultant, doing lighting systems for a building, then yes you have to have a PE or the drawings have to be approved by a PE. There are many career paths for engineers where a PE would not help at all.

 

[BobPE]

agreed buzzup, just not many career paths in the real word outside of sheltered industry where non engineers run the show....I have the opportunity to hire a lot of engineers and it is always sad to tell an industry engineer that their experience doesnt count because they dont have a PE and to have them tell me they want so badly to get out of industry....I think if we all had the PE we as a group would be so much more appreciated.

BobPE

 

[buzzp]

If you want to work as a consultant get a PE, if you think you might want to work as a consultant, get a PE.

There are plenty of opportunities for EE's, such as myself, who have no PE. I would agree that Civil Engineers probably have way more opportunities with a PE than without. I am not so sure this would be true for EE's.

 

[etch]

the question was generally thrown in to see the answer, i was amazed that engineers of say a machine plant would have to be certified. Over in UK , many people call themselve engineers, from greasemonky types to aerospace stress engineers.

 

[PBroad]

Dear Etch, As a UK citizen it may interest you that though the use of the word Engineer is more lax in UK, you get what you pay for The UK has begun a debate on registration standards see

http://www.engc.org.uk

. In view of the increased access to higher education, and NEED to identify technical competence the UK has signed on to an "International Register of Engineers". Canada and USA are also signatures, though with the very variable State rules it is hard to find out just who has signed on. This is part in accord with the Federation Eupopeen d'Assoiation Nationales d'ingenieurs (FEANI) which issues the EurIng designation. The new standard accepts international registration after 7 years experience and is also recognised in Australia and several Asian countries. see

http://www.engc.org.uk/international/irpe.asp

for precise requirements

 

[RDK]

Several of our American friends have posted here about the “industrial exemption”.

Let me be clear. This does not exist in Canada. In order to legally call oneself an engineer or any other title that may lead the public to believe that you are an engineer you MUST be registered as a professional engineer. Thus something like 90% of engineering school graduates are P.Eng’s (some never entered the field and some branched out into another field like law.) Most of the professors at engineering facilities are P.Eng’s.

The only exemptions are power engineers or boiler operators, train engineers or drivers or military engineers and then you have to be a member of the Canadian Armed Forces in an engineering capacity. To use the term engineer with any of these traditional exemptions one must use the full term i.e. power engineer.

While this is not always enforced it is the law.

Registration in Canada involves one of two methods. The first is a Bachelor’s degree from an accredited engineering school followed by 4 years work experience under the direction or mentorship of another engineer. The second is to write a series of exams (I believe 22 maximum) which is dependant on an assessment of your educational qualifications, followed by a period of 6 (I think) years experience. In both cases some of this experience must be North American.

Usually liability (also called errors and omissions ) insurance is only required for a practicing engineer who offers engineering services directly to the public. In Manitoba you are required by law to have $500,000 in order to get a permit to practice. In Saskatchewan the requirement is not based on insurance but on a review of ones experience and submission of references, similar to the initial registration but with higher thresholds. In Alberta the permit to practice only requires that one professional engineer assume responsibility for the ethical practice of the firm.

The insurance is held by the company, not the individual. The costs for the minimum depend on gross billings of the firm and for a one person company with a claim free history, you can expect to pay between $3,000 and $4,000 per year. (All amounts in $ CDN. $CDN=$US 0.65) This will vary greatly depending on your field of practice.


In Canada the profession is regulated by provincial associations. They each have their slightly different requirements but transferring registration is simple, easy and automatic. (For the personal registration not the corporate or permit to practice)

Enforcement of the various acts is left to the individual associations. In Manitoba with over 3,000 engineers and geoscientists there were around 10 complaints last year and none of these were refereed to the discipline committee for action. Past actions have resulted in short term (one week to six months) suspensions of licenses with perhaps a requirement for supervision for a short period after that. I have never personally heard of permanent revocations to practice.

In both of my associations (Saskatchewan and Manitoba) they spend less that 1% of total fee and other income on act enforcement. Individual registrations cost about $200 to $250 with small corporate registrations around the same.

While I have herd that failure to report unethical conduct is in itself considered unprofessional conduit, I have never heard of anyone being disciplined for it.

Some of the things that get short term suspensions should have, in my opinion, resulted in a permanent expulsion from the profession. (taking another engineers work, reissuing it with out changes or checking for applicability causing problems and serious financial issues, resulted in a six month suspension) These sort of things are not a simple error or lapse in judgment, they show a failure in character that should result in expulsion from the profession.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[BobPE]

buzzp:

I agree, finding EE's with registration is tough. I had the opportunity to design an electrostatic precipitator for an industrial plant. Several EE's in the plant were really interested in helping me. They were interested in helping me outside of their company on the side which was perfectally ok with their company. The problem was, they were not PE's. The funny thing was that in that outside of the company role they could no longer provide engineering services to their own company. It was a real wake up call for them. I mention this because I am a real advocate for getting the word out to engineers about the PE. Too many engineers don't know anything about the PE. IT hurst me becuase when I look to hire engineers, industrial engineers have great experience, but it seems when they talk to me, they have no clue of the importance of a PE. Most if they choose to enter work outside industry get pigeon holed into technician roles which is far below their capacity as an engineer and they get disheartened with consulting quickly.

I do blame industry for the industrial exemption, not the engineers.....I think industry considers engineers tools instead of the professionals that they are, possibly for money reasons. I have seen industry engineers with over 10 years experience come out at 40k a year and their value in consulting would be over 70k if they had a PE as an example.

good discussion, its interesting to hear about Canada's Peng....

BobPE

 

[buzzp]

Yeah, for whats its worth, I will be attempting by PE exam in the next year. I like to keep my options open. Great discussion.

 

[plasgears]

Personally, I didn't feel complete as a graduate engineer until I got the PE. It was an enlightening experience. A brief word about how I decided to get the PE:

The chief of the facility where I worked, a major jet engine plant, mentioned in the newsletter that it would be a good thing to get the PE. Hundreds of engineers applied to the state agency for the PE exam. The state officials decided to bring the exam down to the plant.

Six or eight prep courses were organized by the licensed plant engineer types in the plant, and hundreds took the exam. My most enlightening experience connected with this was the intereaction with experienced engineers from various disciplines. Everybody had their shortcuts.

I recommend the PE to all graduate engineers, even those many years out of school. I took mine 13 yrs after grad.

 

[buzzp]

Is taking the EIT exam a mandatory part of getting your PE (have taken mine in college)? I suppose it is different from state to state.

 

[BobPE]

buzzp:

for the most part, yes the EIT is required. I think there are a few states that may have guidlines for taking the PE without it, like maybe Tennessee. The problem is, unless you only want the Tn. license, other states will not let you get receprocity without the EIT so you will only have the Tn license. With the EIT and PE you can get licensed in any state...

BobPE

 

[Focht3]

If you're getting licensed for the first time - or are likely to need licensing reciprocity with multiple states in the future - then you should strongly consider registering with the NCEES' Records Program.

http://www.ncees.org/records/establishing_a_record/

I wish the program had existed when I first became registered in Texas - it would have saved me some (but not all) of my grief when I applied for registration in California five years later. (If you want to compare stupid bureaucratic rules, consider this: at one time, Texas actually prohibited a PE applicant from taking the PE exam until after he/she became licensed. I guess the Aggies were in charge of the Board then...)

 

[johnfalky]

For starters, I am a non-degreed engineer, with extensive Aircraft experience. When I announce this fact, others, with no knowledge of my abilities, automatically downgraded me to a technician. While I have an excellent resume, certificates and all, it lacks that 4-year college degree-my career started as a formula car fabricator and technician in Europe in a small race car factory.
It is my experience that having a degree does NOT really qualify a party to be an engineer in a specific field, but that experience and real skill are the critical components of competency. In my field of heavy Aircraft repair and maintenance, the experience is critical because of the fact that this type of work is not really taught in school. However, I must tell you that I do not recommend entering this engineering field or any other for that matter, without a real degree. In my case after 12 year of work with one company and a stellar work record, I was replaced with a younger, degreed engineer after some highly unethical activities were conducted without my knowledge. In this case, I was assuming that fellow engineers would at least follow the engineering code of ethics. Was I ever wrong!! A turd is a turd, even with a college degree.
The quality of work originating from the department deteriorated badly as soon as I left, and the entire dept. simply shut down several months later after my replacement badly botched an avionics/interior conversion job.

 

[melone]

Watermelon, your statement "MIGHT not be compulsory if you work in private industry and only design things "inside the business." As soon as you offer your services to the public at large, then it is compulsory" is wrong. I have spent my entire engineering career designing things for customers (very large and very much outside my company), and I do not have a PE license.

 

[BobPE]

melone:

It is against the law in the United States to dispense engineering advice and services to the public as a non licensed engineer. You can do that under industry exempt only for the company you work for.

Here is a very clear exapmle for everyone to ponder that was used in other posts here on this site.

Lets assume you work for industry and have done engineering for them for 20+ years....I then hire you away from that company to work in my consulting firm. The firm got a job for oyur old company doing the things you did before you left the company and began working for the consultant. You could no longer do the engineering for your old company working for the consultant without a PE. You would be working under a PE to do the work.

Its that plain and simple.....Performing illegal engineering is a serious matter and is punishible under state laws if you are caught (hopefully you would be cought by another engineer and not a failed design that harmed someone). There are hundreds of cases every year of illegal practice in all the states. Go to your local states Professional Engineering sites to look at them.

Telling people in here to break the law is not a good thing to do, if you choose to tell them that you break the law, that is your concern. Since you are not a PE you should reserve yourself not to comment on such serious matters....

BobPE

 

[electricpete]

Bob - I think you overreacted to melone's comment.

Melone - can you explain the circumstances? Is what you offer to your customers engineering services, or some other service or product?