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Climate Sensitivity and What Lewis and Curry 2014 Has to Say About It 12

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rconnor

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Ah yes, it’s that time again folks. A paper is released, in this case Lewis and Curry 2014, that says climate sensitivity is on the low end of the spectrum and the “skeptic” community starts banging pots and pans claiming the ACC theory is dead. Well, like most things in the field of climate science, it's not nearly that simple. Let's look at the entire story.

Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity (ECS) and Transient Climate Response (TCR)
Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity (ECS) – the amount the planet will warm in response to a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration (the base is usually taken from preindustrial levels of 280 ppm). ECS includes both fast and slow feedbacks, so ECS is not fully realized for decades or centuries after CO2 is held constant.

Transient Climate Response (TCR) – similar to ECS but only includes fast responding feedbacks. In other words, TCR is the temperature rise at the time atmospheric concentrations hit 2x the baseline, not where it will settle out to. As slow responding feedbacks tend to be positive, TCR is smaller than ECS.

These two are not the same and should not be confused. Many “skeptic” arguments prey on this confusion, be careful.

The Body of Knowledge on Climate Sensitivity
First, here’s a good list of the spectrum of peer reviewed literature addressing climate sensitivity. If you actually want to understand the topic (instead of cherry picking things that fit your viewpoint), it’s import to look at the body of work, that’s kinda how science works. Here’s a graphical representation, from AR5 WG1 Fig Box 12.2-1:
[image ]

To claim that a single paper can definitely set climate sensitivity, is false. While on the low side, Lewis and Curry 2014 does sit within the spectrum of other estimates.

Lewis and Curry 2014
Now to the paper itself. Lewis and Curry 2014 (LC14) is very similar to Otto et al 2013 (they both take the energy balance model approach), just with different heat uptake rates and reference periods.

LC14 has a heat uptake rate (0.36 Wm^-2) that is almost half of Otto et al 2013 (0.65 Wm^-2). The uptake rate used in LC14 comes from a single model, not an ensemble mean, and is, surprise, surprise, a very low value (which leads to lower ECS).

The ending reference period (1995-2011) was selected to “avoid major volcanic activity”. Although this seems odd considering Vernier et al. 2011 found that volcanic activity greatly affected the 2000’s. Furthermore, it is well known that the last decade has been a La Nina dominated period which would further add a cooling bias to their ending reference period, and thus artificially lower their ECS and TCR estimates.

Now new evidence (Durack et al 2014) suggests that “observed estimates of 0-700 dbar global warming since 1970 are likely biased low. This underestimation is attributed to poor sampling of the Southern Hemisphere”. Using the results of Durack et al 2014, the ECS would rise (15% according to a tweet from Gavin Schmidt).

The paper makes no mention of Cowtan & Way 2013 which demonstrates and corrects the cooling bias in HadCRUT caused by a lack of coverage in the heavily warming Arctic. Therefore, much of the recent warming which is occurring in the Arctic is unaccounted for in this paper. This would cause an artificially lower value of ECS and TCR.

The paper also ignores Shindell 2014 and Kummer & Dessler 2014 (most likely because they are too recent). Both of these papers highlight the inhomogeneities in aerosol forcing which may cause energy balance models to underestimate ECS and TCR.

Finally, the rather simplistic technique used in LC14 (and Otto et al 2013 as well) ignores all non-linearities in feedbacks and inhomogeneities in forcings. The exclusion of these elements leads to a lowering bias in TCR and ECS. Due to the fact the sample period and technique used introduce lowering biases into the results, LC14 may be useful in establishing the lower bound of sensitivity but in no way offers a conclusive value for the median or best estimate.

It should be noted that the results of Lewis and Curry 2104 implicitly accept and endorse the core of the Anthropogenic Climate Change theory; namely that increases in atmospheric CO2 will result in increases in global temperatures and that feedbacks will amplify the effect. For example, if you feel that the recent rise in global temperatures is due to land use changes and not CO2, then the TCR and ECS to a doubling of CO2 should be near zero. Or, if you feel that "it's the sun" and not CO2 then the TCR and ECS to a doubling of CO2 should be near zero. The recent change in climate is "just natural" and not CO2 you say? Well then TCR and ECS should, again, be near zero. So, if you've found yourself claiming any of the preceding and now find yourself trumpeting the results of LC14 as proof for your side, then you, unfortunately, are deeply confused. If you want to accept LC14's value for TCR of 1.33 K as THE value for TCR (which it isn't), then you also accept that majority of global warming is due to anthropogenic CO2 emissions.

What About Other Papers that Claim Lower Sensitivity?
As I stated from the outset, Lewis and Curry 2014 is hardly the only paper to address climate sensitivity. Beyond that, it’s hardly the only paper to suggest that climate sensitivity is on the lower end of the IPCC spectrum. I’ve addressed a few already but there are more (Lindzen 2001, Spencer & Braswell 2008, etc.). However, almost all of these papers have been found to have some significant flaws that cast doubt on their conclusions. Various peer reviewed rebuttals to these papers are listed below. I’d welcome readers to review the rebuttals and the original authors response to them.
[image ]

...But What if Climate Sensitivity WAS Lower Than Expected
Let’s ignore all this for a second and pretend that, with Lewis and Curry, we can definitively say that climate sensitivity is lower than expected. Then what? Does this completely debunk the ACC theory? Does this mean rising CO2 levels really aren’t a concern? Well, many “skeptics” would say “YES!” but they do so without ever actually examining the issue.

According to Myles Allen, head of the Climate Dynamics group at Oxford:
Myles Allen said:
A 25 per cent reduction in TCR would mean the changes we expect between now and 2050 might take until early 2060s instead…So, even if correct, it is hardly a game-changer…any revision in the lower bound on climate sensitivity does not affect the urgency of mitigation
.

The issue is that, with atmospheric CO2 levels rising as quickly as they are, a lower TCR does not mean anything significant. It just means that the effects will be delayed slightly. So even if “skeptics” were correct in saying that climate sensitivity is definitely at the lower end of the IPCC range (which they’re not), it would have no substantial impact on future global temperatures or the need to control CO2 emissions.

So, Lewis and Curry 2014 is:
1) Inconclusive to definitely say that climate sensitivity is on the low end of the IPCC spectrum
2) The results are suspect and appear to include numerous biases that would lead to lower TCR and ECS
3) Even if it were conclusive and accurate, it would still not suggest that reductions in CO2 emissions are unnecessary. In fact, it adds to the scientific body of knowledge that temperatures will continue to rise to unsafe levels if we continue with the status-quo, just maybe a decade later than other estimates.

(Note: I’ve started this new thread to discuss climate sensitivity specifically. It is an important topic that popped up in another thread and I felt it merited its own discussion. I would, as much as possible, like to keep the conversation on this subject…although this is likely wishful thinking)
 
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Oh rconnor - your ideology has blinded you. Why do I say that?
rconnor said:
So even if “skeptics” were correct in saying that climate sensitivity is definitely at the lower end of the IPCC range (which they’re not), it would have no substantial impact on future global temperatures or the need to control CO2 emissions.
You are so fixated on the supposed need to control CO2 emissions that you have missed the blatantly obvious: time. More specifically, time to adapt. The time to adapt to change whatever the cause. Because that's the issue here. If we were to be struck by an asteroid or comet tomorrow (and not be amongst the instantly incinerated), the ensuing nuclear winter/ice age would kill many people because of the rate of change - we wouldn't have time to adapt. Compare that to a slow-onset ice age, due to some other natural slow cause. In the face of a slowly oncoming wall of ice, I would certainly move rather than be "crushed". Well, I could anyway if I were not poor.

So, if the sensitivity is low, then the impetus for mitigation action is likewise low while the incremental cost for adaptation is also low. It is only when the sensitivity is high that the rate of change becomes incompatible with adaptation and mitigation is a cost-effect approach.

The challenge in all the sensitivity calculations is to tease apart the natural (cyclic or otherwise) warming and cooling from that directly attributable to humans, and specifically human emissions of CO2. Certainly not an easy task. One t the things that I will give Lewis and Curry huge credit for is putting some real effort into identifying and calculating their error estimation. So many previous studies have done a very poor job of that task.

What I find most interesting is how, over time, the estimates are reducing. Certainly there is a lower-bound estimate: the laboratory value of (give or take) 1 deg C per doubling. Any value above that relies on feedbacks that amplify that effect.

From a time-value-of-money perspective (economics), the lower the sensitivity, the lower the incentive to do anything. The slower effects happen, the better off we are. Of course, the richer we, the easier it is to adapt. So, maybe it would be better to make everyone in this planet richer with greater access to energy - which would allow them to easily adapt to whatever change comes out way; be it natural or human-induced. Unfortunately, whatever action is taken to reduce CO2 emissions will have pretty much the opposite effect. Even if it mitigates a human-induced change, such a move weakens our ability to adapt to any other change - and that's trally a bad thing.
 
"More specifically, time to adapt."

That presumes that there is no tipping point, and that the cost to repair is no worse than linear. Ironically, Western Civilization came up with, "A stitch in time saves nine," and pretty much in any industry, it's well recognized that the sooner a problem is solved, the lower the cost. So, yes, we may, or may not, be richer in the future, but the problem will be progressively worse, and the proportional cost to bring things back will be more than linearly more expensive. How many engineering problems have you done a cheaper job of solving by waiting for it to get worse? There's already a trend of high tides that are going to cost millions, if not billions, of dollars to mitigate in the next 50 yrs. So, we are already paying for not solving the problem. Given the large percentage of the world's population that lives near an ocean coastline, there will likely be massive displacements of population and damage to property and ground water tables from salt water intrusion.

TTFN
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7ofakss

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
 
Does any of this justify spending 8 billion dollars to avert 0.02 degrees of rise instead of preserving an area of rain forest the size of Uruguay?



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
one model, whatever it's results, will not make, or unmake, the argument (debate is way too gentle a word, and pissfight is too inelegant); and if sketics are claiming such (as claimed) then they aren't helping the argument (they're just chucking gas onto the fire).

but taking the concensus for a bunch of different models seems (IMHO) to be hokum. if different models prodcue radically different results, then either some of them are "wrong" or they are optimised for different climate inputs/effects (like a linear FEM will do a pretty good job, a non-linear model will do a better job ... if the structure had significant plasticity effects then the linear model would be "nonsense" but at least it tells the analyst this (if he listens carefully to what the model is telling him).



another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
You'd think after doing this for 20 years, the estimates for climate sensitivity would be zooming in to the 'right' answer instead of diverging wildly.

Maybe, just maybe, CO2 isn't the only thing that's warming the planet.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
 
This is what I actually said, "a) the sensitivity of the global surface temperature to CO2 seems to be falling, as it is more rigorously analysed, away from the funny numbers that were being used to scare people back down towards the number you'd expect from lab measurements."


That set of papers is selected from a website that has a tab labelled "Anti-AGW papers debunked", so forgive me if I suspect that there might be a bit of cherrypicking going on. As it is your confusing and mislabelled graph makes the point that two thirds of those datapoints come in as less than 3.2 deg C per doubling, the IPCC 4's official scary number




Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
NOW I know what apathy feels like...

If we need a new Climate Change thread every time a paper comes out, this is going to go from tedious to stupid.

Not one of you has ever switched sides from what I can gather.
 
CEL - actually the opposite of apathy. There is some serious passion on both sides of the discussion. While I completely disagree with rconnor, I do admire his passion and tenacity. The likelihood of his mind being changed is quite low, yet for some bizarre reason I keep trying. You can't do that while being/feeling apathy.

While I try my best to convert him and others with the same misguided beliefs, I also try to show fence-sitters how ridiculous the alarmist/warmist mentality/approach is. I can try to influence undecided engineers - and if I have then I have succeeded.

I have a fundamentally positive outlook on humans and human ingenuity. I don't see mankind as a plague (virus) on this planet, but rather the greatest thing to ever occur. I am so full of optimism, that I will fight the pessimists until my last breath!
 
The human existance is the universe attempting to under stand itself. Models and debate is part of that process, and should be encuraged. To not do so is to place us back in the dark ages, with the king telling us what to believe.

Apathy is what the non-thinkers do, as a way to make life simpler, as they waste there lives, freedom, money, and our resources.

So if there is a cause of any climite change, it is apathy. Because apathy has no ideas, or solutions, and dosen't care.
 
As the book I am reading at the moment says, human are always in a rush to change things because our lives are so short. If the models that inspired the AGW lucrative panic religion are correct, in their long term implications, but cannot handle the 50-60 year cycle length short term variations, then they have a problem, because we have good data for 30-odd years, and reasonable data for 150, ie 3 independent datapoints. So you need to decide how many to use to train the models (they aren't physics based, they are trained models) and then how many to use to validate the models. With only 3 independent datapoints that doesn't give you a whole damn lot to work with.





Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
TGS4, I will address your point regarding mitigation v adaptation only as it relates to sensitivity. I will not discuss the economic analysis of mitigation v adaptation as this is off topic. However, I will note that numerous studies indicate that mitigation is much more cost effective than adaptation in the long run.

TCR is the amount the planet will warm at the point when atmospheric CO2 levels reach twice that of the baseline (usually 280 ppm). ECS is the amount the planet will warm, in total, if atmospheric CO2 levels reach twice that of the baseline and then are held there indefinitely. However, without any reductions in CO2 emissions, CO2 levels will continue to rise far beyond that point. RCP8.5 (which is close to a “business-as-usual” scenario) leads to a CO2 level of close to 940 ppm in 2100. So reducing the TCR from 1.8 K to 1.33 K means very little when you’re sitting at 940 ppm - you’re still experience dangerous increases in temperature.

It’s important to realize that when we talk about a TCR of 1.8 K or 1.33 K, this DOES NOT tell us the amount of warming we will see in the future. That amount is dependent on where we limit atmospheric CO2 levels. All that a lower TCR and ECS means is that the % reductions in emissions per year required to keep future global temperatures at a safe level (most say +2 deg C is that level) is lower, but it still requires mitigation to achieve that. Furthermore, as Myles Allen pointed out (which you’ve seem to have missed) is that taking a TCR of 1.33 K instead of 1.8 K, all you do is shift the effects out by 10 years. A TCR or ECS value at the lower end of the range does nothing to reduce the threat of future temperature rises without mitigation. .

But beyond all this, you’ve completely ignored (so has every other poster) the fact that LC14 includes numerous biases in the reference period and technique used that creates an artificially lower TCR and ECS. So while it is ok at establishing a lower bound, it is wrong to treat it as the “best estimate”.

TGS4 said:
What I find most interesting is how, over time, the estimates are reducing.
What are you basing this statement on? Well, I’ll do the leg work for you. Below is a graph of ECS estimates from various papers over time. I made sure to include LC14, Lewis 2013 and Otto et al 2013 and didn’t even bother including more recent, high ECS studies…still doesn’t matter. You’re guess is at best unsupported and at worst is flat out wrong and the inverse is correct.
[image ]

While the values seem to continually come in within the IPCC range (as LC14 did), some come in at the higher end of the scale, some come in at the lower end. However, there is nothing to suggest that the sensitivity is increasingly or definitively found to be at the lower end. Some studies point to the exact opposite conclusion. Sherwood et al 2014 concludes that models with lower climate sensitivity do not accurately reproduce observed climate dynamics. Based off the assumptions they make, some techniques have inherent biases that tend to lead to higher or lower values. Simple energy balance models used in LC14 and Otto et al 2013 are known to introduce lowering biases, LC14 much more than Otto et al 2013.

Now, what I will say is that the values don’t seem to be homing in on a singular value. This is why sensitivity remains an important open question. However, one cannot conclude that the results are trending to the lower end as this is unsupported by the data (in fact the inverse is supported by the data). If nothing else, the results trend, more and more, within the IPCC range. This supports the ACC theory. Most importantly, even if the true TCR and ECS are closer to the lower bounds, this still means that mitigation is required to limit future temperature rise.

GregLocock, see above. There’s nothing to support the assertion that “more rigorous” studies (LC14 would be the exact opposite, it’s a simplified technique that, due to its simplicity, has inherent biases that lead to lower values of TCR and ECS) have been causing the sensitivity estimate to fall. The only reason it may seem that way to you is because, as I stated, when any paper with lower sensitivity comes out, the “skeptic” community begins banging pots and pans together and draws the attention of media.
 
How very typical warmist of you to draw a straight line through a mess of data. I see a sinusoid through that data with a definite decrease in the more recent years. But, I guess when everything in your world is linear, I guess all you see are lines. And you certainly couldn't see cycles...

TCR or ECS, while they may be correlated to a low base value of CO2 concentration - 280ppm, they ought to be valid throughout the range of concentration values. Therefore, your assertion that concentration will reach 940ppm by the year 2100 is a 1.175 doubling over the current value of (to round numbers) 400ppm. Therefore, if TCR is on the order of 1.33K, then the global average temperature (and you know how much I detest that abomination of a quantity) should be expected to increase by 1.56K above current levels. Meh.

Of course, to get to 940ppm from our current 400ppm, the concentration will have to increase by 540ppm in the next 85 years. That's a rate (linearized, I know - so shoot me) of 6.35ppm/yr. It's currently at about 2ppm/yr. So, to achieve your number, the rate of increase will itself have to be tripled. Business-as-usual indeed...

While you may not want to discuss the economics of adaptation vs mitigation, it really is the heart of the matter. And to start, you have to start identifying costs and benefits. I know that it's hard for many warmists to accept, but there truly are benefits of warmer temperatures. Not to mention the agricultural benefits of a higher CO2 concentration. Since the end of the little ice age, according to NASA GISS, global average temperatures (gawd, I hate this metric) have increased by almost 0.8K. In that time, the worldwide GDP has gone up (in constant dollars) between 30-fold and 40-fold. Wow - maybe warming is really really good for us!
 
"How very typical warmist of you to draw a straight line through a mess of data. I see a sinusoid through that data with a definite decrease in the more recent years." ... all i see is a pellet pattern from a shotgun, though it'd be nice to see the regression coefficients of the straight line ... and whether a curve has a higher regression; but this is just "counting angels".

@ rconnor, would you admit that another paper saying that warming is increasing is met with the same type of sensationalism ("the end is nigh") ... there's too much sensationalism from both sides ... it might as well be a political debate ?

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
The regression coefficient will be misleading.

Almost all physical and thermal processes are proportional to a power of absolute temperature. That means that the temperature projections are actually all on the order of 3xx ± 2.5 K, which is a range of less than ±1%. So, the predictions are not "wildly" divergent, it's the consequences that are wildly divergent. To that degree ;-), almost all of the predictions show at least a 1 K increase, which will certainly lead to some significant climatic changes, which still include glacier melting, sea level rise, etc. Whether the sea level rise ends up to be 3 m or 10 m, is simply a matter of degree; the financial cost of even the lowest rise will be in the 10s or 100s of billions of dollars.

TTFN
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7ofakss

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
 
If I was presenting that data (rconnor's most recent plot), I'd probably draw a circle around all the points and give parametric equations for it. Then point out that 100% of the points correlate with being "inside" it. That straight line is a joke.

- Steve
 
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