Contractor's Stamp on Shop Drawings 3

[strucguy]

I am a structural engineer and find this incident pretty annoying. Yesterday the architect we are working for forwarded some submittals (mix designs and shop drawings etc) to us for review. Almost always we have received submittals that contained contractor's stamp indicating that the information in the submittal is in general conformance with the contract documents. But, during this particular instance the submittals didn't have any stamp on 'em. So, I promptly contacted the Architect and told him that they ought to have the contractor resend the submittals (electronic is fine) with their stamp on them, and int he mean time will go ahead with our review. After couple of hours I get this frantic call from the Architect saying that the contractor is furious about our request and wanted us to get our act together and process the subittals. That's outright rude to me. I was upset when architect further indicated that they can't do anything about it and wanted us to do needful (in other words...approve the shop drawings without contractor's stamp). This is in violation of the general conditions put forth in the project specifications. I am confused now. Do I just give in and do what the Architect wants me to do or stick to my ground and not process submittals until the contractor agrees to stamp the drawings. Anyone been in this boat before? Appreciate your input.

 

[msquared48]

Just make sure you include in your shop drawing stamp the fact that the contractor's responsibility to adhere to the contract documents is not superseded by your approval of the shop drawings. The contract documents with your stamp on them always prevail, to include any and all RFI's that have been answered.

I am dealing with a similar contractor on a job, and, quite frankly, just ignore his ranting and raving, and deal with his subordinate who is much more conducive to logic. Eventually, he may have to be put in his place.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[Ron]

strucguy...stick to your guns. If the contract documents require that the contractor stamp the submittals, make the @$$ do it. Otherwise if there is a problem later, he will deny involvement in the approval process and blame it all on the design professionals.

The architect has no balls. If he can't stand up to a bully contractor, he shouldn't have the responsibility of administering the contract.

 

[strucguy]

Bad news!! I had to give in . Apparently my boss doesn't like to confront. But, I clearly told my boss that I won't be putting my initials on the shop drawing stamp. He said he is willing to take the shots. God save our profession.

 

[strucguy]

Ron & Mike....thanks so much for your input.

 

[DRWeig]

A boss in an engineering design firm who doesn't like to confront contractors? Wow. That's a very enjoyable and very necessary part of the job!

Best to you,

Goober Dave

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[JedClampett]

Standard contract language requires contractors to review submittals before they pass them on to the engineer. But I see less and less contractors doing this. Part of it is the ease of just passing on electronic submittals without looking at them. Part is budget issues. Part is laziness and incompetence.
The good ones use this stage as a way to make sure the submittals meet their requirements.
As far as fighting the contractor on this, unless the owner is on board, it's a losing battle. The contractor will whine that you're being unreasonable and it's affecting their schedule. And when the owner hears it's due to a lack of a stamp, they'll flip like a gymnast. Even if it's in the contract.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

I agree that it is merely a formality (even if it is in the contract documents) that unless the owner/GC/CM enforces it - the contractor don't do it very well or maybe event won't do it.

I have seen too many "contractor stamped" submittals that were wrong, incomplete, copies of a catalog, or from another project entirely.

Only when they are held to the fire by the entity that authorizes their pay do they do what they are told.

 

[hokie66]

If the architect can't enforce this simple provision of the contract, how will he control the contractor on the big issues? Strong contractor / weak architect is not a good formula.

 

[cvg]

I dont see it as a formality at all. too many contractors just submit things without reviewing either the plans or the specs. they leave the review up to the engineer. but then complain when the engineer finds that the submittals dont meet the specs. this wastes time and money for the owner. the architect should be looking out for thw owners money, not catering to a contractor. correct procedure is to send the submittal back without review marked incomplete. you have to set boundaries with contractors or they will run all over you.

 

[Ron]

strucguy...you're probably in for a long project on this one. Don't be surprised if the contractor proposes a bunch of alternates to your design and then complains that you are costing the owner money if you don't go along. If he proposes an alternate to something, make HIM supply the engineering to back it up and you can review the engineering at a fee. Don't be surprised also when he finds some engineer who will sign anything and submit a load of crap for your review. Happens all too often and until you get his attention by returning his first attempt to "where the sun don't shine", you'll get more.

hokie66...saw your comment in another thread about the theodolite....hilarious!

 

[DRWeig]

Here's what I would write (or e-mail) to this contractor fellow, with a copy to the owner:

"The owner paid you to assume liability for this submittal and to affix your stamp to certify that you are responsible for meeting the specifications with the submitted equipment. If you don't give the owner what he is paying for, I will initiate a change order in the amount of $$$$$ to reimburse the owner out of your fee."

I never had to do that on a refusal-to-stamp thing, but it's been very effective when a contractor puts something in place that is less than specified and either: 1) hopes I won't notice on inspection; or, 2) brings it to my attention with all sorts of reasons why it's as good as what I designed.

Sorry, but if I write specifications and the owner pays for a job bid from those specs, then the owner has paid the contractor to follow all of the procedures in there. Weaseling out of a requirement that has to do with liability might be expensive in my opinion.

The contract documents with your stamp on them always prevail

I believe that is correct, msquared48. However, I have never had it tested on a job. If the submittal has the contractor's stamp and signature on it, he has no defense at all if something does not meet spec. Without that stamp, there may be lawyers involved to enforce the liability on him.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

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[fel3]

strucguy…

I agree with your initial plan and have done the same thing myself quite a few times. I also think the architect and your boss--each in his own way--just opened a big case of worms…not just a can of them.

My MO is that if I don't get cooperation from the contractor on this issue, I will send back unstamped submittals without my review comments and I don't really care who gets mad. Fortunately the offending contractors usually comply quickly. One time the excuse was "we are having a new submittal stamp made and it hasn't arrived yet." I told the him to hand write what the stamp was going to say and sign it that that would be OK with me. Fortunately, also, I have never had an architect or a boss who objected to my procedure, though I have upset a couple of owners. I simply told those owners that I was protecting their interests by enforcing the contract and the person they really should be mad at is the prime contractor.

BTW, one time--about 15 years ago--I actually had a contractor thank me for rejecting an unstamped submittal. It turns out that a subcontractor had sent the submittal directly to the owner (who sent it to me in such a way that I didn't know its provenance) and the prime contractor hadn't seen it. The prime was actually pretty good about following procedures and making sure his submittals were complete and accurate. So, I emailed him a copy of the subcontrator's submittal with the note that I would have rejected it even if it had been stamped because it was so bad. He reamed his subcontractor something fierce and it never happened again on that project.

Fred

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[strucguy]

Thanks everyone for your input. I am thinking our including a separate sheet with our stamp and some language that reads "No fabrication is allowed until the contractor has reviewed and stated that the drawings are in general compliance with contract documents. A/E's approval or acceptance of this submittal in no way relieves the contractor from compliance to the contract documents". Hopefully that will fire up someone's @$$. Sorry couldn't resist.