Conversion of jobs

[killswitchengage]

Hi ,
i was just wondering about a problem that i describe as a plague to the geotechnical society here in my country . People from different domains are converting themselves to geotechnical engineering , say geophysical engineers as well as geologists and other civil engineers for ex structural guys. Now dont get me wrong i respect them , but i highly disapprove of someone that take my job especially since that they didnt study nor chose to be geotechnical engineers in the first place . Does it happens where you guys live ?

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

The worse job-taker in the GE field has to be that mech-egr/geologist Karl von Terzaghi

 

[IRstuff]

"they didnt study nor chose to be geotechnical engineers in the first place "

That seems a bit harsh. There are lots of non-nefarious reasons for changing disciplines, such as layoff, mid-career/life changes. The world would suck pretty bad if everyone was permanently assigned to an unalterable career or job. We should consider ourselves lucky to live in an age where one didn't spend their entire life as a landless serf.

TTFN
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[Ron]

DSG2....that was just mean! [ROFL]

 

[killswitchengage]

@Darthsoilsguy2 you can't compare the average guy with Terzaghi , he is the father of soil mechanics and i personally think of him as an idol. I hope you are being sarcastic .
@IRstuff: Sure its a bit mean when you study your ass to be a geotechnical guy and then some dude choose to just read some books ; and try to steal your bread . I think that that's the most rude thing in existence . If you chose to be a pilot , how will you react when a scum like me decided to just take the co-pilot seat with no degree at all ?. In life, men should accept their mistakes and be willing to take full responsibilities for their choices , if you ever wanted to change your job plz do so by restudying again . Ultimately , what i am trying to say is that soil mechanics is not your average easy science . Guys that steal our jobs tend to be ignorant who lack proper knowledge of the science and trust me ; i am experiencing that thing in my daily life with ignorant engineers acting like experts ....

@TTFN : eh was it just a random post , or where you referring to me

 

[IRstuff]

"then some dude choose to just read some books ; and try to steal your bread"

That's your presumption. But, one would presume that if your education did make a difference, that would show up in their work output and quality. If there's no difference, then either they are that good, or what you perceive to be significant, isn't really significant. Life is just unfair that way. There are guys who don't go to class at all, yet pass or ace all the exams. There are guys that were better EEs in junior high than you'll ever be.

There was a time when career cab drivers complained about laid-off PhDs stealing their fares; such is life.

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[cvg]

not sure what country you are in, but in this one, engineers cannot practice outside of their area of experience. that would be grounds for revoking a license. if they wish to gain experience and begin practicing geotechnical engineering, they should be properly licensed and nothing wrong with that. more power to them.

 

[killswitchengage]

God bless you cvg .I live in Algeria , you know the big country between Morocco and Tunisia you can call it the country of utmost chaos and nightmare . Planning to move to the USA or Canada

 

[killswitchengage]

@IRstuff : you don't get it Sir. I am asking this question because i know what's happening . Sir , in geotechnical engineering proper knowledge of soil mechanics and geological deposits as well as soil behavior , are not taught here in Algeria. I my self did not have the privilege to be taught how a real geotechnical engineer should have been taught . With that being said , my colluges at work are just utterly vomiting fake ass reports ever single day . No its not that bad , but reading Terzaghi's book ( he is the pioneer and father of soil mechanics ) has lead me to a whole new level of enlightenment. I could go on and on explaining how they are F things up with cheap robotic monotonic; mathematical reasoning and reports ( which Terzaghi hated the most ) but i hope you understand what i am saying . Its not about denying them their rights , but its about their contamination of our science and trying to act like them know everything ....

 

[Ron]

KSE...it is human nature for a technical person to want to solve problems. Those with confidence in what they do will sometimes apply their prowess in areas they shouldn't do so. It seems that anyone remotely connected with the geosciences wants to become a "geotechnical engineer" because that is more technically challenging than being a geologist or soil scientist, and in most cases more lucrative. Unfortunately they don't usually have the academic background or experience to practice geotechnical engineering in a proper manner. They often are successful, mainly because they have not hit on a proper geotechnical challenge that would get them into technical trouble.

As cvg noted, in the US and Canada you are required to practice within your area of expertise, but we still often see geologists and soil scientists trying to encroach upon the geotechnical engineering specialty.

Keep fighting it. Challenge their expertise (or lack thereof) at every level. Good luck.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

i was just messing around, but there was a point to it. That point being.... Geotechnical Engineering is a relatively new career in the history of mankind. There was a time, not too long ago, when Geologists were major players in Civil Engineering and saw themselves marginalized and pushed out of the market. Those deceased/retired geologists would have had the same things to say about all the newbies showing up with their "Geotechnical Degrees".

Perhaps, the non-geotech-engineers you know do lousy investigations and then write lousy reports. I've only worked with 2 Professional Geologists who do geotech and they are both very good. Another relevant point is that Geotechnical Egrs, who studied it in school, are definitely out there publishing garbage.

 

[Ron]

DSG2....well said!!

 

[killswitchengage]

Bottom of the line is : you want to be a geotechnical engineer ? fine just go do you're studies again. If the states therefore regulations denied any one the right to do any job without proper licence : Algeria would have been a great country .

 

[IRstuff]

I don't know that you'll get exactly what you want in the US, or anywhere else. Per professional engineering laws, if you pass the test, you are qualified to practice that discipline; no discipline specific education is necessarily required.

TTFN
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[BigH]

Not too long ago - I guess except for the newbies - there was no "geotechnical engineering". It was called Soil Mechanics; we had engineering geologists - hence, Rock Mechanics. Don't ever sell a good engineeering geologist short. I have had the pleasure with working with one of the best and had, as my geology professor, George Kiersch, one of the best. I do not know why you are so upset - you have a geotechnical engineering degree (?); mine is not - I have a "civil engineering" degree with my major in soil mechanics. Do you have a problem with me? If so, you'd have a problem with Henkel, Sangrey and Kulhawy and Paul Mayne. Paul was in my class at school - he, too, has a civil engineering degree. Henkel, Sangrey, Kulhawy were professors - of soil mechanics/geotechnical engineering at our school. If a person is competent to practice in a field - either by "study" or experience, then so be it; I hold no grudges.

What has, in the past, gotten under my skin is the plethora of so called geotechnical engineering firms that, in effect, has driven down the prices of geotechnical investigations and reporting to pre 1970 levels (without even taking into account inflation). As Ron knows, Toronto had about 5 major geotechnical firms (Geocon, Golder, Dominion Soils,Trow and one or two others) - now there is probably a huge yellow page full of them. I did a job where Vic Milligan (RIP) - one of the top tier geotechnical - oops, soil mechanics - engineers that Canada ever produced (via Ireland) did a job directly adjacent and for the same kind of structure. In the early 1960s, he had about 45 hours to produce his report; I had 4. That is what the major problem is - too many chasing too few jobs for far too little money and respect.

 

[Mccoy]

BigH, in this era of globalization, even problems everywhere are the same. Prices are dropping here because of competition, the nice side of it being that houses are not being sold, so estate prices are dropping as well, remaining unsold usually. Taxes and retirement age are rising though.

http://www.mccoy.it

 

[Ron]

- too many chasing too few jobs for far too little money and respect.

Exactly!

Add to that the fact that engineering curricula in universities become more and more diverse and watered down, such that students only get "exposed" to subjects without being required to delve into the subject matter to learn it with more than superficial depth.

Like BigH, I'm a "civil" engineer. My primary practice is structural and construction forensics. I frequent the geotechnical threads because I have a reasonable background of experience in geotechnical work, having done a fair amount of it over the years, including managing a geotechnical laboratory and doing the testing. I do not; however, consider myself a geotechnical engineer or a specialist in soil mechanics. I "grew up" in one of the largest, reputable geotechnical and materials engineering firms in the world at the time. It gave me a phenomenal opportunity to learn about many things, geotechnical included, from some of the best as BigH noted. I migrated toward the materials side because of my structural background. I can hold my own with the "three holes in a cloud of dust" geotech projects, but couldn't compete with the likes of BigH, McCoy, DSG2, and others in here who practice geotechnical engineering/soil mechanics on a daily basis.

Academic backgrounds give us a nice start, but its the daily practice and interaction with those who know more than we do that allow us to hone our skills and be better at whichever discipline we choose. These guys in the forums humble me on a daily basis!!

 

[IRstuff]

"- too many chasing too few jobs for far too little money and respect."

That's not going to get any better. The big push in STEM education will be creating additional engineering graduates, and all will be looking at every possible discipline to find their own niche. Most engineering disciplines are in the part of the demand curve where a small change in supply can make a big difference in price (wages)

TTFN
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[killswitchengage]

@bigh you have no idea what i wanted to tell in the first place . Having a soil mechanics major you are qualified for this , and if i understood right you studied in the US or Canada which hold some of highest ranking universities in the world .Ron also had this privilege, and either way i am pretty sure you guys know how to properly conduct a geotechnical report. That being said , Ron is more pragmatic and chose the material background .

I am sure engineering geologist are great persons ... simply not in Algeria , on the other hand , being a sedimentologist or a purrrree geologist does not grant you the right to be an engineer ok . I work with road construction engineers as well as bridge engineers , the quality of their report is not bad it could be worse but they lack the fundamentals of soil mechanics and ignore some the things they should know. Back in the old days , geotechnical engineer was not but now its a science apart from the others because its so complicated it need a dedicated personnel and it keeps on growing .