Cotton Seed Storage 2

[TravisMack]

Any one have any ideas on where to find criteria for protection of rack storage of cotton seed in open baskets to a storage of 15' in single and double row racks?

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Class III like nuts?

Nuts
- Canned, cartoned Class I
- Packaged, cartoned Class III
- Bagged Class III

All cotton warehouses have sprinklers but I have yet to see a seed storage facility have sprinklers. Owners explain seeds don't burn but smolder.

 

[TravisMack]

I honestly have no idea. That may be why I can't find any information on it at all.

I am hoping the hazmat guru Stookey will be able to shed some light on it.

We were told to refer to Chap 23 - High Piled Storage and Chap 29 - Storage of Combustible Fibers for the criteria. However, those just basically say to do per NFPA 13. I can't find anything in 13 that represents this. The Nuts idea may be as close as possible. I am still trying to get info from the insurance company as well.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[stookeyfpe]

Travis,

Factory Mutual is silent on the issue and the only other item I could find was baled cotton (but not densely packed baled cotton) in the 2007 edition of NFPA 13 in Chapter 21.

IFC Chapter 29 may be applicable. I'm out of the office delivering seminars today. If you can wait, I'll check the Ignition Handbook tomorrow (Friday) and see what I can find.

 

[TravisMack]

That is basically what I found as well. Not really much out there on the topic

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[FFP1]

Have you considered submitting a sample to FM Global Research for testing. They can provide burn characteristics and all of the detailed information you need to determine the appropriate commodity classification.

 

[TravisMack]

This is likely not the first one this company has ever done, so we are trying to track down how some of the other facilities like this were done.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[FFP1]

I was an Engineer with FM Global for 15 years. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I don't think FM Global has published any design or commodity classification criteria for cotton seed. If submitting a sample to FM Global Research for testing is not an option, I suggest a VERY conservative approach or involve a reputable FPE to determine a suitable design.

I would guess cotton seed would burn similar to a Class II commodity. I assume the "open baskets" are combustible and as they burn, the seeds will spill resulting in a smothering effect. Using a Class III commodity classification is probably a reasonable and very conservative approach; if you have a strong water supply...........go with Class III or maybe even Class IV just to make sure. The difference in cost will not be significant between Class III and Class IV as long as you have adequate water.

FM Global classifies bagged seed corn and other similar vegetable seed products in bags (stored on pallets - not in racks) as a noncombustible product. You have cotton seeds in racks; however, I still expect a slow burn with periods of smothering as the seeds spill onto the floor and create a pile which essentially eliminates the oxygen and temporarily extinguishes the fire.........the only way to be absolutely sure is to submit a sample for burn testing.

If the "open baskets" would not expect to allow spillage during a fire.........you have a somewhat different situation & the combustible nature of the baskets would be an important part of the equation. Open top containers which hold water also present a serious challenge to automatic sprinkler systems, but I do not think this is an issue in your case.

I hope my opinion and this information is helpful.

 

[TravisMack]

FFP1:

That was very helpful. It is not going to be possible to get the commodity to FM at this point. In the process of trying to get some previous insurance requirements, we were told to figure a budget density for baled cotton storage to 15'. That put it at 0.33 / 3000. That would give us well over Class IV in rack to 15' if it comes back as that. The strange thing is that they are making the room an H3. I am told that there will be some raw cotton still on the seed at some point, so they want the room an H3 for the combustible fibers.

If I could give you 2 or more stars, I would for that one Same for Stookey. You guys are great!!

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[stookeyfpe]

Travis,

The IBC Group H-3 classification is unique because many combustible fibers are not hazardous materials, and that is the focus of the IBC requirements for Group H occupancies. However, the Group H-3 classification was assigned by the code officials because it was given such a designation in the legacy BOCA code.

When you look at the IBC requirements for a Group H3 storing combustible fibers, the only specific requirements are:

-- Automatic sprinkler protection in accordance with NFPA 13
-- A minimum one-hour fire barrier with opening protectives with an equal rating

The problem I have with the Group H classification for combustible fibers is you can be severely penalized ("dinged") on your basic allowable area. Even though its storage and the material is not a Flammable Solid, you cannot obtain a 300% area increase resulting from the sprinkler installation because of the Group H classification. Conversely, if I build a warehouse and propose rack storage of expanded, exposed Group A polystyrene, I can classify the building as a Group S-1 and make it unlimited area because its sprinklered.

I promised you a literature review. All of the data I reviewed for cotton in the Ignition Handbook was limited to baled cotton - no testing of cotton seeds was performed. When I looked for data on other agriculture seeds, I can find data for dust deflagrations and explosions, but nothing on a fire risk. I believe you can use this information along with FFP1's statements and begin to make some conservative but reasonably accurate assumptions as to commodity classification. My only comments to FFP1 statements is this: can the cotton seeds act as a free flowing material, and this potentially obstruct transverse or longitudinal flue spaces? If so, I would believe this should be included in your justification for the commodity classification.

 

[TravisMack]

Thanks again for all of your help. This has been invaluable!

For those of you that get some time off, enjoy the extended weekend.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[786392]

Dear All,with all due respects,
I humbly suggest to check and apply data of any oil seeds(if available)and nearest to resemble is Sunflower seeds.

Having said that Combustible dust scenario is the most applicable here as pointed out by the forum great"stookeyFPE" as well.

Moreover the since oil contained inside
1)probably flammable dust scenario may be worth considering

2)once oil comes out due to any heat application potential for combustible liquids scenario can be envisaged as probably becoming applicable.

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

 

[FFP1]

Solid cotton seed in warehouse; dust explosion potential is minimal AND cotton seed dust explosive limits indicate the likelihood is essentially nil.

Flashpoint of cottonseed oil is 485F.........this is after the oil has been extracted and concentrated. There is a huge difference when evaluating the fire risk of cottonseed oil vs. the bulk storage of cotton seeds.

 

[786392]

Does 'cottonseeds' in any way compare at all with 'sunflower seeds' or not!, kindly improve awareness.

Dry non-humid cotton seed's bulk storage have potential for dust explosion,I assume.

Although present research or data might not be available.

Many of the Materials always considered harmless,Non hazardous;like sugar, pharmaceuticals and other high flash materials ended up as serious dust explosions& fire hazards.

As such I still tend to disagree with you "Dear/Honorable FFPE1"

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

 

[786392]

Sorry to Mis-Spell your user name/handle.
Correct is "FFP1" Please pardon me for 'typo'.

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

 

[FFP1]

786392: You might be correct.....in the perfect environment, cotton seed dust might present an explosiion potential. I simply indicated the explosion potential associated with solid cotton seeds in a warehouse environment is low (maybe even insignificant). MSDS sheets for cotton seed dust and cottonseed meal indicate the explosive limits are N/D or N/A (not determined or not applicable based on the various MSDS sheets available on the internet).

There are some significant differences between cotton seeds and sunflower seeds (primarily volume of oil in each seed, combustible nature of the fibers and the ability to crush into a fine dust - cotton seeds are difficult to crush into powder form due to the long stringy fibers). I made my assessment and based my comments on personal experience, FM Global loss history and MSDS sheets.

I hope this explains my previous comments in a more clear & concise fashion.

Regarding the specific fire & explosion characteristics for cottonseed oil, cotton seed dust, sunflower seed oil and sunflower seed dust..........the information is available; however, I am not motivated or intersted enough to spend the time required to complete the comparision.

 

[786392]

Thanks, I am grateful for the response!

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)