CSA (PN) Flanges and ANSI Flanges

[302Hugo]

I am getting so confused and I'm hoping someone with knowledge on these flanges can help me out. I am trying to order CSA Z245.12 flanges with the PN rating so that we can design our piping to 9930kPa @ 85C. When I spoke with our vendor he sent me a quote for CSA Z245.12 Gr. 359 flanges but it stated it was for 900ANSI. When I brought up that we needed flanges with the PN rating it seemed to confuse things even further. He sent me MTRs for the flanges but that didn't help because it would state that it conforms to CSA Z245.12 (along with B16.5, etc.), which is true but you still need to derate if not tested to PN...correct? He then sent me an MTR for a flange that was stamped with the PN rating but the MTR doesn't mention it and still refers it to a 600LB flange.

I talked to the vendor (not the manufacturer...he's been talking to him) and basically sent him the Z245.12 blurb stating what the flange needs to be stamped to and that it should have a certificate of compliance. He said the only document is the Certificate of Inspection...is this the same thing? Or would there be another document outlining that it has been tested to meet CSA Z245.12 and PN ratings?

As well, I am confused on stampage regarding the pressure class. Can a ANSI flange be stamped with PN (I've seen it) and what does that mean...is it rated 9930 upto 120C? If not, then why stamp it with both? And can a CSA flange be stamped with an ANSI rating and not a PN rating...I assume so, but it just mean you need to derate after 38C and it needs to be stamped with PN to be able to go to 120C?

I just want to order flanges that I good for 9930kPa @ 85C and it's SO frustrating, ha ha! What is most frustrating is that the vendor and manufacturer doesn't seem to know what I am looking for...which makes me even more suspicious of if they what they have is what I need.

 

[canadapipe]

Hugo it should be pretty clear from the MTRs for the flange whether or not it meet the Z245.12 requirements. I should be listed there as the applicable code. That been said I've often seen confusion from certain manufactures with regard to meeting CSA requirements, typically because the components are often dual rated. I've often seen MTRs for material order to CSA with ASME references only to have the CSA MTR for the same component to be supplied when I queried it.

As far as I can tell from the details you've provided if the vendor provides a flange to meet Z245.12 (or dual rated) there won't be a need to de-rate the flange. If it's manufactured to ASME I think your out of luck. Either way the manufacturer should be able to provide you with a MTR.

 

[302Hugo]

Canadapipe - I could be wrong but IMO it's not clear enough. IMO they are very confusing on what the proper class rating is. Especially when it lists the description as "16" 600 RF LF2 CL1" which tells me its ANSI rating...but the vendor tells me they beleive it's CSA rated. One of the MTRs I looked at lists Z245.12 Gr. 359 as the material, but in the notes it lists B16.5 as the standard. The only place it talks about CSA is for the material (which is weird because why would you have CSA materials for the B16.5 code?). Then on another MTR for A350 material it says in the note "materials is in accordance with the applicable Standard to which it is ordered including: SAME B16.5....CSA". It doesn't even list the CSA standard, lol. But my issue with that is that a A350 material ANSI class flange DOES meet requirements of the Z662 standard as per Table 5.3 (I beleive it is). You must just derate accordingly to the ANSI rating.

But you could very well be right and maybe the MTRs just get confusing if they are dual rated, and maybe there just isn't a proper MTR form to show dual rating information? I think I'm just going to order the flanges they tell me are CSA / dual rated and then inspect them when they come in. If they are not what I need I'll argue they sent me the wrong ones and return.

 

[302Hugo]

Can anyone provide clarity on what determines the flange can be rated to 120C before deration? Is it the CSA Z245.12 or the PN designation that determines this?

 

[canadapipe]

Hugo the flange rating temp will be determined by the manufacturing spec. CSA flanges are good to 120C. For ASME the rating varies based on the temp as per tables 2-1.1 onwards. One thing I would note would be that A350 LF2 flanges are lower grade than the CSA Gr. 359 your looking for, I suspect that you'll need A694 or A707 flanges from the vendor in order to meet the higher yield strength of the Gr. 359 pipe.

 

[302Hugo]

Ok, so I have attached a photo of the MTR I received for one of my flanges. Maybe this will help to explain my issue and hopefully someone who has purchased these before can ease my concerns?

The vendor has stated this is a dual rated flange. The flange is stamped with both B16.5 information and with CSA Z245.12 information, and it looks like it was stamped with a PN rating on another section of the flange. As you can see on the MTR it says the material meets Z245.12 but no where does it state it meets ratings as per Z245.12 (is this just implied?). In the Note General section it lists "B16.5 ED.13 Inch STD" as the "Standard", which makes me think it only meets those requirements. I would think if it was dual rated it would also list Z245.12? What further has me confused is that in the other Notes section it says "flanges comply with the requirements specified for....CSA when used in the specific conditions detailed in the STD." As you are likely aware of, you can use a B16.5 flange in CSA but it still needs to meet the de-rating conditions for the P-T table. Which to me this is what this statement is saying.