Dealing With Professional Complaint 10

[MyCupboard]

In Short: I wrote a site observation report for a site in a state that i'm not licensed in (but my boss is), my boss approved the report, we sent it out to the builder, and the homeowner submitted a complaint that i was practicing engineering without a license. my boss's name and my name are both on the report under "prepared by", no one signed or sealed the report. Anyone have experience with this? Any insight is helpful.

In Long:
I've been a licensed PE in one state for a couple years. At the firm that I used to work at, we did a lot of site observation reports for builders. Essentially when a homeowner complained about quality of work or structural integrity, the builder would call us to check it out and recommend repair specifications or state why we believe things are okay. The firm had 3 engineers - the owner (licensed in many states), my direct boss (licensed in one or two states) and myself (licensed in one state). All of our reports would have "prepared by" with the person who wrote the report as well as the owner's name (who checked the report and approved it).

The company wrote a report in a state that the owner is licensed in, but I am not licensed in. I have seen engineers work on millions of projects in states that they are not licensed in, as long as the principal/boss was licensed and checking the work (and ultimately the one signing and sealing). At no point did I sign or seal any documents for this project (since i'm not licensed in the state). In fact, my boss also did not sign and seal the report (since it was not requested by the municipality, builder, etc.). On the report my boss consistently requested that we put our credentials at the end of our name for the comfort of the client (EIT when we were that, and PE when we passed our exam). So my name had PE at the end of it, since I am a PE. Again, no sign and seal or signature of any sort - just a line that said who wrote the report. Our company name and address was also on the report, which is located in the same state that i'm licensed in.

The homeowner submitted a formal complain to the state licensing board stating that I was practicing engineering without a license. I submitted my formal response as requested but I really thought this would be an open and shut case - which it is not. It has been over a month and the investigation is ongoing.

My question:
Does anyone know if this is normal? I have since left the company and am not working at a firm that writes reports anymore (or does work in states other than what i'm licensed in) - so i'm not worried about future instances. I would appreciate any insight.

 

[phamENG]

In some states, not signing and sealing a final report can be a breach of regulations. For instance, in Virginia:

1. All final documents, including cover sheet of plans, plats, documents, drawings, technical reports, and specifications, and each sheet of plans or plats, or drawings prepared by the professional, or someone under his direct control and personal supervision, shall be sealed, signed, and dated by the professional. All final documents shall also bear the professional's name or firm name, address, and project name.

So for me, it doesn't matter what the client or AHJ want, my minimum level of service will have my seal on the final document, even if that's just a cover letter for some redlines explaining what work I have done.

It's not enough for the boss to check and sign the report. They must also be in responsible charge. It's a higher level of scrutiny. Did they direct the project? Did they make the key decisions? If no, then it could be said that you were in responsible charge, not your boss.

If your name ever goes on a document with PE on it for a project in a state you're not licensed in, you should at least put a little blurb under your name with "Licensed in PA" or something similar. NSPE: Use Of P.E. Designation—Not Licensed In State In Which Complaint Is Filed

So while you did not intend to practice in a state where you weren't licensed, there's probably enough there to make them wonder and do an actual investigation. And it can come back to bite you - if you're disciplined, you'll be required to report it to your home state where they may also discipline you. Failure to report can result in revocation of your license in most states.

 

[MyCupboard]

phamENG - That's what I was afraid of. At this firm, almost zero of the reports going out ever had a signature and seal. Wasn't my decision, I was just a worker bee. I was also not the one directing the project or making the key decisions. Interestingly enough, I actually advocated multiple times that I did not feel it was appropriate to put my name on the documents that we send out - for this reason exactly. But until you get burned, you don't know how important it is to stay away from the stove. My boss insisted that this is the way it works in engineering and he has never seen a company that didn't do it this way - the person who physically writes the report (even if the engineer in responsible charge is the boss) puts their name on the report and then the boss puts his name too. I have since left this company for a few reasons. The complaint arose after I was already gone from the company.

 

[JedClampett]

I'm licensed in many, many states. As such, I get disciplinary reports from them in their monthly (quarterly, whenever?) newsletters. I'm thinking this is a pretty minor violation. For one, you can probably combine this into one, with your boss as the main offender. Assuming he's licensed, it will likely be a $200 fine, some training, and you'll (or maybe just him) have to report and explain the violation on any future license applications or renewals. But I'd wait for the process to play out. I'm guessing these boards get hundreds of (crank) complaints from citizens, and maybe yours will go in the non-pursued file,

 

[SWComposites]

Reading a lot of these forums, I'm really happy I work in an industry exempt field.

And you could sue the homeowner for defamation. Seems to be SOP for our previous dear leader.

 

[JAE]

In fact, my boss also did not sign and seal the report (since it was not requested by the municipality, builder, etc.)

As phamENG responded - this is simply incorrect. The municipality, builder, owner, large squirrel have no say in whether something gets sealed/signed or not.
The state you practice in (and are licensed in) dictate what and when things get sealed...which is most anything where you are providing engineering services.

It's not enough for the boss to check and sign the report. They must also be in responsible charge. It's a higher level of scrutiny. Did they direct the project? Did they make the key decisions? If no, then it could be said that you were in responsible charge, not your boss.

This

 

[TigerGuy]

I believe this has been addressed by NSPE Ethics. You are a PE. You may not be a PE in the state where this project was located, but you are a PE. There is no requirement to disclaim which states have you licensed (but it can help in these situations).

Does the state where the project is located require stamped and signed inspection reports for all projects? Your boss, as the PE in responsible charge of the project, should be up to date with the requirements and follow the established guidelines.

It sounds to me like the homeowner read something somewhere and is just trying to make a stink.

 

[AZPete]

Buck stops with the engineer in charge. In this case, it is your licensed boss. Have him write a letter to the Board stating that he is the responsible engineer in charge.

If a technician wrote the report and the PE boss signed it, would there be any question?

 

[IRstuff]

Hypothetically, any report containing engineering analysis, calculation, or observation, signed or otherwise, would be considered "practice of engineering" in at least some states, particularly if it's delivered to a customer. The only way out is the responsible charge issue, but if your boss wasn't actually in responsible charge, then he would be ethically in the wrong to affirm that he was. That's kind of a bad precedent, particularly if he gets caught at it.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[TigerGuy]

That's the old argument about what constitutes being the responsible engineer in charge. As I mentor and train new graduates through them getting their own PE license, I gradually reduce my level of direct involvement in their projects. When they have been at it 3.5-4 years, and are doing a good job, I don't feel I need to tell them every step to take. I'm still the engineer responsible for the deliverable, but I'm not micromanaging them. Once they have their PE, I still review their work, but they are the PE of record on the project.

Working in other states, the responsible engineer needs to be licensed in that state. They can have another PE, that is not licensed in that state, conduct all the field work and report back just like a tech or entry level EI would do.

 

[MyCupboard]

As phamENG responded - this is simply incorrect. The municipality, builder, owner, large squirrel have no say in whether something gets sealed/signed or not.
The state you practice in (and are licensed in) dictate what and when things get sealed...which is most anything where you are providing engineering services.

Help me understand this. If someone goes up to John Doe and asks him to look at their foundation and write a report with what john sees when he does the observation - does he need to be an engineer? does he need to seal the report? if he's not an engineer, is he not allowed to write a document saying what he saw? I'm not being snippy, I'm just actually curious. I've worked for a few different companies and all of them sent out documents that weren't sealed. like, thousands (or millions?) of documents per company. It just seems to be the way it is in Pennsylvania.

If a technician wrote the report and the PE boss signed it, would there be any question?

exactly my point. there are hundreds of companies that have one engineer and like 10 technicians gathering information for them. if my boss (the licensed engineer) is acting as the engineer directly monitoring/checking/overseeing every inch of the project, why would the person writing the word document need to be licensed?

Working in other states, the responsible engineer needs to be licensed in that state. They can have another PE, that is not licensed in that state, conduct all the field work and report back just like a tech or entry level EI would do.

this was my role in the project. I went out to the site, took pictures, showed them to my boss and explained what the pictures were showing/where they were located, then wrote what my boss said to write (he didn't literally dictate to me, but he had me write some stuff based on whatever other report he wanted it to look like, then he adjusted as needed).

to me, it sounds like i'm going to be off the hook, because i essentially was doing the same job as a technician. But at least now i will know - i'm DEFINITELY not performing any work for future (or current) employers that is in another state until they pay to get me licensed in that state haha.
thanks for your help everyone

 

[AZPete]

If a designer creates copy, shops around, and finds a licensed PE who then "rubber stamps" the work without oversight, that would be considered out of bounds.

In such a case, does the designer get pursued for practicing without a license?

 

[dik]

That's the scary part... why would anyone do something like that... maybe thinking of litigation?

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So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

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[AZPete]

Properly done, the Board would be looking into the boss as well. Otherwise, how to pierce the seniority chain and go at the implied supervised for practice?

 

[dik]

That should end it, and quickly. Why was the complaint really filed?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SWComposites]

Likely that a) the homeowner didn't like the report, b) is an engineer or attorney

 

[phamENG]

If someone goes up to John Doe and asks him to look at their foundation and write a report with what john sees when he does the observation - does he need to be an engineer? does he need to seal the report? if he's not an engineer, is he not allowed to write a document saying what he saw?

Yes, but also no. Is he doing it for hire? How is he advertising himself? If you're not an engineer, you'd likely need to either be a home inspector or a contractor and appropriately licensed/certified as such (though specific rules are different in different states/cities/etc.).

You were doing it as an engineer, so there needs to be an engineer in responsible charge licensed in that state. If nobody sealed the report, then how do you know who is in responsible charge? You have two peoples' names on it, both claiming to be licensed engineers, but neither "taking credit" for it. Leads to some ambiguity.

The licensing system is, in it's most idealistic sense, intended to ensure safety and public confidence. The average person has no idea how our industry or our profession works. So if they have this letter, and it's either wrong or turned out to cause them a problem in some way (maybe they're selling the house and the buyer's engineer disagrees with what your report says), and they look you up...you don't exist. You're not in the state's system. It looks, to them, like you lied about being an engineer and now they're left with some sort of annoyance (or worse).

Hopefully you left that firm on good terms...if not, they may not be willing to 'fess up about it. Especially if it seems like a lawsuit may be brewing...

 

[AZPete]

How to pierce the supervisory signature and get to the subordinate?

 

[phamENG]

How to pierce the supervisory signature and get to the subordinate?

Simple - this has nothing to do with what the supervisor did. It's going to come down to whether or not the OP represented himself (or herself?) as a Professional Engineer licensed in that state by placing the PE designation after his (her?) name on the report but not making it clear that they were not licensed in that state.

Now, the boss not sealing it may be a violation of the regulations...I don't know what state we're talking about here so I'm not sure if it's a hard and fast requirement in this case. But those matters would be completely separate.

This isn't a lawsuit or a criminal proceeding against the company...this is a question of the behavior of a professional with regard to the professional regulations.

(For the record, it sounds like the OP should get off as there was likely no intent...I'm just trying to think through it impartially and as unsympathetically as I can.)

 

[Rabbit12]

Our industry is stupid sometimes. There is absolutely no harm with what the OP did. The report was prepared and submitted under the supervision of a PE licensed in the State the project was located. Sounds to me like the homeowner didn't like the results of the report so they are being vindictive.