Definition of Structural Engineering Competence

[Atomic25]

First a little background: I work at an A/E firm. The structural engineers who work here have no more than 5 years experience....most are at the 1-2 yrs range. Most of the projects that come through are lowrise steel, wood, metal stud, or PEMB's. The architects make them as difficult to design as possible, but at the end of the day they're not too bad.

Nobody here has experience in reinforced concrete structures aside from basic reinforced concrete coursework for a BS degree, and one ACI seminar.

The firm has just secured a project that likely involves an 8 story reinforced concrete design....do you see where I'm going with this? What are the ethical limitations of this situation? I could read and read and teach myself reinforced concrete design, but would this be considered to be practicing outside of my realm of expertise?

I would definitely lose sleep over stamping something I've never done before, without someone who knows what they're doing looking over my shoulder.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If you would wonder about the safety of the design, you have an obligation to raise those concerns to management. Putting your stamp on something you were not confident in doesn't sound too good in a court of law, know what I mean?

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[civilperson]

Hire an outside reviewer for the design or sub-contract to a apecialist in post tensioned concrete. Your learning curve will break both the budget and the schedule.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I think you answered your own question - get some help...

 

[RVSWA]

...and by asking you demonstrate a whole other Structural Engineering Competence.

 

[RLM2000]

If you are an A/E firm, that doesn't mean you hav to do the E part of it. If the powers in your company want you to do the design, then you need to tell them you don't know what you are doing and need help. Or do what we did:

My company is small, but tries to stay on the cutting edge, and always is willing to step outside the box to help some of our long-time clients. In the past we got contracts to do projects using materials/designs that we didn't really know how to do (had a general idea, and the right skills, just no one had actually been EOR on those kinds of projects). One was an arch bridge (we mostly do steel or precast girders), and the other was a concrete parking garage (we have done a few steel garages).

Rather than defer to another firm. We found independent operators (retired engineers from other companies) to come in and be project managers for both projects. We also spent significant time at several jurisdictions getting ALL of the permit, design and drawing data for like projects. By the time both projects were over using the skills taught by the contracted project engineers, and the library of data we had gathered we made great design packages. Both were received well, and were permitted and built easily, no-one knew that it was our first time on those kinds of designs at all.

 

[rday]

RVSWA, a star for you.

Agreed you should seek some outside guidance.

 

[JStephen]

I think it depends a lot on the circumstances. If nobody had ever designed anything like this, then you might be just as qualified as anyone to take it on (and of course, in that case, there would be a disproportionate investment of time). But where there is no end of people that have done the same thing before, getting somebody else involved that is more familiar with it can be a tremendous help.

It's not just in the safety aspect of it, either. Knowing what to check (and what not to spend time on), how the details ought to look, what the industry practices are, etc., can make a big difference.

 

[southard2]

I agree with most of the comments here. You need to tell management that you need to hire someone who has experience designing buildings like this before or convince them to switch to steel and masonry.

I think your predicament is actually too terribly common. I was left as a lone EIT to clean up the poor work of others for 6 months when I was younger of course. I've also had friends who worked in A/E firms that were expected to know everything about everything even though they too were inexperienced. I also know of a few engineers who regularly design masonry and actually don't even know how to do it.

If an architect ask you to do something you don't know how to do you need to walk away from the project, get someone else involved who can do the work, or spend lots of time researching the topic to the point you are very confident you know what your doing. The last option must be done incrementally however because the worst thing is when you don't know that you don't know.

For this situation I recommend telling the boys upstairs they need to sub out the structural engineering to another company.

 

[oldfieldguy]

Potiphar Gubbins, C.E.,
Is seven years junior to Me;
Each bridge that he makes either buckles or breaks,
And his work is as rough as he.

(Excerpt from "Study of an Elevation, in Indian Ink" by Rudyard Kipling)

Not that it applies at all to the conversation, but a little poetry never hurts...

old field guy

 

[hydrae]

Check your state laws:
In Oregon, this is one of the items that require a structural engineer to design, which is a second test after taking the civil.

ORS 672.107 (D) Buildings that are customarily occupied by human beings and are more than four stories or 45 feet above average ground level.

If the most experienced only has 5 years total does he have a structual PE?

Hydrae

 

[cry22]

Atomic,
OK to lose sleep a bit, but I say you should take the work and hit it head on. You've got to rise to the challenge if you want to move up.
Sure, you'll have to spend lots of of unpaid overtime hours to get things done, but the fear of concrete will be gone.
Look for some old drawings/calcs, review comments from reviewers are especially helpful, code comments received on prior projects, read some books.
Go look around at buildings under construction, ask the foreman if he could let you take look at the set, most will help you get some tricks.
Be nosy, call your peers, ask your colleagues, etc, etc.. but by all means, take the asignment and you'll be fine. Your concerns are a good sign of someone who cares, good professional conscience will help you.
I'm sure that after two months, you'll say, "sooo that's what it's all about!!".

Good luck

 

[plasgears]

DB Steinman [Big Mack Bridge and others] wrote extensively about this. Read his books.

 

[dougantholz]

couple of options:
1. hire an engineer to do all the work, and seal the drawings. you should stay involved to do some coordination.
2. purchase some engineering software that will do a bulk of the design. GO THROUGH THE TUTORIALS. They will help familiarize yourself with the subject mater and design requirements/limitations.
2a) if you pursue option 2 I would suggest hiring a firm to do some QA/QC/peer review of your design. This helps smooth out the rough spots.
3. hire an engineer to work for your firm that is competent in this type of building and can seal the work.

each has baggage, each has benifits.
If this is a one-off project then I do 1.
If this is the start of a number of projects I do 2 & 2A.
If this is a new business your company is expanding in, do 3 and put a junior engineer along side to "train from the master".

 

[firai]

Like previously said, two main options:
1. Do the work yourself and hire a second engineer to do QA/QC work, or
2. Hire a second engineer to perform all the work, while being actively involved to coordinate the work.

I would be very careful of dougantholz's second option (purchasing software). Most software have very specific limitations that may or may not be listed in the documentation. It would be very risky to trust the results without already knowing how to perform the work yourself.

hydrae, other than Washington, Oregon and California (that I know of), most states do not require a licensure specifically as an SE.

 

[IRstuff]

Additionally, there is supposedly existing case law that holds the user of such software liable for errors in the software discovered later. It's up to the engineer to validate his software for correctness.

TTFN

FAQ731-376