Definitions for single/multi run under EN ISO 15614-1 for process 142

[XL83NL]

A question I recently ran into; does anyone know what the definitions are of single run and mulit run under EN ISO 15614-1? Our application is orbital TIG welding w/o filler (i.e. 142, position PK), tube-to-tube welds in sizes 1/'4-1". Background is that we use WPS's with a multi-run process (a +/- 720-730° orbit of the electrode around the weld joint, to improve weld quality). I'm trying to figure out if our definition equals the wording of EN ISO 15614-1. EN ISO 15614-1 lacks in providing definitions in contrast to ASME IX.

I've posted a similar topic, but then for ASME IX, a few years ago.

Any thoughts/help?

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[DekDee]

Huub,
Hope you are well.
Personal opinion only - single run.
In the absence of any definitions (as per ASME IX) it seems the only relationship shown in EN ISO 15614-1 is base metal thickness / weld deposit thickness.
If full penetration is obtained in the first run then the base metal/weld deposit thicknesses are equivalent.
By going around the pipe for another rotation you may be altering the mechanical properties (as noted in the ASME IX post) but you are not altering the weld deposit thickness.

As for the automatic v machine welding for ASME IX - again just personal opinion, it is machine welding.
An important revision was made between the 2010 edition quoted in your post and the current edition.

2010
welding, machine: welding equipment that has controls that are manually adjusted by the welding operator, or adjusted under the welding operators direction in response to visual observation of the welding

2019
welding, machine: welding with equipment that has controls that can be manually adjusted by the welding operator, or adjusted under the welding operators direction in response to changes in the welding conditions

Cheers,
Shane

 

[XL83NL]

Thanks DD. We’re currently looking into recertifying the existing PQRs, which are based on the 2004 edt., to the 2017 edt., where these variables have become non essential. That would be an escape. This will be done by our notified body which certifies the PQR’s.

As to machine vs automatic, I don’t see how it could be machine. Our orbital device doesn’t allow altering controls during welding, only at forehand. Our notified bodies have in the past also considered it to be automatic.


Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[DekDee]

In your situation you are right, it would be classed as automatic welding.
A lot of other orbital GTAW applications would be classed as machine welding.(semi-automatic)

" There are different types of orbital welding. Fusion type orbital welding which is referred to as Automatic GTAW (Gas Tungsten Arc Welding) because the weld program and welding process is all pre-set and once the weld operator pushes the start button, you cannot alter the weld settings during the weld.

This process is typically used on tubing systems and thinner walled piping systems that can be fused together where the material is controlled well enough to provide a repeatable weld. Other thicker wall pipe, materials that need filler material, and materials that are not processed to be welded may need to we orbital welded using a Semi Automatic welding process.

This process is similar to the Automatic process where the weld operator still prepares a base weld program, but has the flexibility to alter all parameters of the weld during the weld process. The operator can change heat input, travel speed, tungsten oscillation, weld direction along with other parameters"

 

[kingnero]

I suppose you're talking stainless steel?

 

[XL83NL]

Yeah stainless, 316/316L. Occasionally C276 or C22.

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[kingnero]

Indeed, in that case single/multi run is not essential.

BTW, the definition of a run is: "metal melted or deposited during one passage of an electrode, torch or blowpipe".

Passing twice without filler would mean multi run.

 

[XL83NL]

Do you have a reference for that definition?
I have also looked at the official EN ISO 15614-1 interpretations on the site of the workgroup, but none of the listed interpretations gave more clarity.

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[kingnero]

ISO TR 25901

 

[XL83NL]

Spot on, excellent!

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[kingnero]

Graag gedaan

 

[XL83NL]

Are u Dutch by the way or do you know a word or two?

Update: the PQR’s mentioned in this discussion were all updated to the current EN ISO 15614-1:2017+A1:2019 edition by the nobo, using the original pWPS and test certificates which we held together in one dossier with the PQR.
They now qualify the range we require.

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[kingnero]

Proud owner of one of the top-three welding and materials engineering consultancy offices in Belgium.

Nice to hear you keep a complete record of the WPQR, this really helps in these cases.
The cover page of our pqr's have a checklist for the annexes, a.o. pWPS, actual WPQR, MTR of base and filler materials, NDT and destructive tests, and a heat inpput summary with + and - 25% limits. This helps to not forget (actually the most common cause is lazyness) all additional information.

 

[XL83NL]

Specialised in titanium? Regular poster on LinkedIn?

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.

 

[kingnero]

I have clients that weld Ti, indeed, and one of them is also rather active on LinkedIn.
Yes, I also use linkedin, perhaps a bit too much.

You recently said here that you teach in the IWT/IWE classes, so do I, but my partner, who is a PhD in metallurgy, also teaches quite some courses in the Netherlands. That's how I know who you are...