Design Error and Licensing Violation 6

[Watermelon]

The other day, my client asked me to comment on a structural beam in his newly-purchased, older building. He was concerned that it looked too small and was deflecting considerably. It was 2 years old.

At that point there was no knowledge as to who designed it. It was suggested that no one designed it, and that it was a "homemade" beam.

I checked the design and found it to be only 50% of the required strength. Human safety was definitely at risk. We have since shored it up. All other structural elements are sound.

Later, the original drawings were produced, and lo and behold, there was a seal on them.

In my neck of the woods, a professional engineer also needs a second license in order to provide engineering services to the public. This particular engineer did not have such a license.

What should I do? What would you do?

Check one of the following:

Roast him alive ___
Try to mentor him ___
Pretend I didn't see it ___
Get out of engineering ___
Sue his ass off ___
Other ___

 

[LPPE]

Let the owner resolve the issue ____

 

[JAE]

The first step would be to notify your local engineering board of the situation. In the U.S., the state engineering boards are there to follow up on questionable practices and provide disciplinary services.

Most state engineering laws require you as an engineer to report violations of the laws. Its not an option. If you know of a violation and do not present it to the board, you are violating the laws as well. This is part and parcel of your duty as a licensed engineer to look out for the welfare and safety of the public.

I don't know where "your neck of the woods" are but you should review your own licensing laws and ethical codes of practice and respond accordingly.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

What would you like to have done to you if someone found an error you made?

Think about it...

With that in mind a) do you know the person? b) Do you like the person? c) What kind of reprisals will there be against you?

I worked for a structural engineer who was sued twice and successfully defended himself both times. Both times lawyers for the other side found expert witnesses (also structural engineers) who my old boss HATES to this day for what they tried to do to him. They don't like him, either, because he found mistakes in what they'd done afterwards and didn't keep it a secret.

I think Pylko has the right idea, since no one got hurt and damage was avoided. Tell your client to get a lawyer and proceed accordingly.

 

[JAE]

DaveViking - I wasn't suggesting that he go to the board because of the error in beam design but only because the "engineer" was practicing without the appropriate licensse. There's a big difference.

 

[bridgebuster]

I also agree with Pylko; let the owner resolve it. A few years ago I was asked to investigate the cause of cracking in a steel supported structural slab that had recently been constructed. To make a long story short, it turns out that both the owner and the designer were at fault.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

JAE - I see and agree. Rules are rules.

 

[steve111]

Where we are
1) you shall contact the other engineer and let them know you are reviewing their work.
2) you shall report to the association these types of things,

shall is the operative word.

but contact the engineer, perhaps the conditions have changed since he was involved, who knows.
also your not a lawyer so let the client figure it out, and your not the association disciplinary committee so let them figure it out.
These things are always crummy to deal with and best left to others.

 

[ghghghgh]

Watermelon,
I don't envy your situation.
My thoughts, should this "engineer" continue to practice and his next mistake result in damage or injury, the trail will eventually be pursued through all of his work. Your name may then come up and you will be asked "Why did you not report him when you discovered he was practicing without proper liscensure?" That will be tough to answer.
I am of the CYA mentality.

 

[Watermelon]

Thank you everyone for responding generously.

I think every answer is correct, for different reasons.

There seems to be 3 philosophies present in the thread:
1. The business response: It isn't your problem so don't make it your problem. Leave it with the owner. Get back to work.
2. The military response: There must be law and order. Everyone must obey rules.
3. The compassionate response: Do unto others as you ...

I tend to shy away from #1, because I'm a lousy businessman. A good businessman would say "Nothing happened, everything's under control. Don't make enemies."

I tend to lean more to #2 because I try to be a "By-the-book engineer." This gives me comfort and I am able to sleep at night."

But I also lean towards #3 because I know what it means to be pardoned.

I will take it upon myself to give the engineer a second chance and warn him there will not be a third.

 

[gesmbh]

I think that most of the responses were somewhat lacking in their knowledge of the law. What you observed was a condition that might have over time resulted in a failure of the structure. No failure occurred and no one was injured. In a suit for damages the owner would be limited in recovery for the cost to repair the structure should it have been necessary. The real issue legally is "was the engineers design flaw the proximate cause of the injury" meaning was the failure of the engineer the cause of the beam to be undersized.

As far as professional negligence or licensing I have never heard of two licenses being required to be a professional engineer and therefore I have to know what state you are practicing in. I think that you might not understand the laws regarding the practice.

You duty as a PE is to the health safety and welfare of the public. Since you found and corrected the condition you met the duty that licnesing requires. You are not required to be a police force, you are not required to report to authorities and if you did you subject yourself to a potential suit by the party you reported meaning "you better really know what you're doing before you report someone for what you believe is a mistake in their work. If you're wrong watch out!!!!

So what would a reasonably prudent person do when confronted with this situation? That is the legal standard. They would make sure the homeowner fixed the problem and they would contact the engineer who might have made the mistake to discuss it with them.

Finally, some states require that you must contact the original engineer or architect before you do anything. If you live in one of those jurisdictions you may have violated your own licensing requirements by offering advice before doing so. In that case maybe you could be brought before you licensing board.

Being a professional is an awesome responsibility. In order to advance the profession it requires the professionals to often go beyond merely reporting to boards. It requires them to act collectively to improve the standards of the whole profession.

Think about it!!!!!!

 

[steve111]

Exactly agree with gesmbh,

first in our jurisdiction you have a duty to first converse with the original engineer. this prevents pratitioners from bad mouthing other practitioners in front of the public when maybe they don't know the full story and making the profession look bad in the eyes of the public. get the full story, your not the jury nor the executioner.
Second in our jurisdiction you have a duty to report misconduct and negligence to the association. the association will enforce discipline and have the power to, more importantly, find out what and where else this particular engineer may have practiced and prepared designs that could possibly jepordising the public. Don't for a minute believe that your responsibility ends with the one beam you found. you are now in the loop unless you hand it over to those capable and legally responsible, ie the association.
The safety of the public is paramount, simple as that.

 

[JAE]

I must respectfully disagree.

Most states (and I'm licensed in over 20) REQUIRE a licensed engineer to notify the state board if they are made aware of a violation of the engineering act of that state.

For example: Ohio Administration Code 4733, Section 35-07, C states:
"If the Engineer or Surveyor has knowledge or reason to believe that another person or firm is guilty of violating any of the provisions of Chapter 4733, Ohio Revised Code, or any of these Rules of Professional Conduct, he shall present this information to the Board in writing."

The Nevada act is similar:

Section NAC 625.540(5): "The licensee shall....If a licensee has evidence that another licensee has been unethical or unfair, or has committed an illegal act in his practice, notify the proper authorities."


I could go on. The point is, if you become aware of an individual practicing engineering without the proper license (and I agree, two licenses seem a bit odd) you MAY be REQUIRED by your particular engineering law (wherever you are) to report this.

Just saying that you can bury your head in the sand or maybe report this to your "owner" doesn't cut it.

I agree with the above statements that imply that you should NEVER do this maliciously or without full disclosure of your standing with the owner.

I repeat that you should immediately consult with your particular governing engineering laws and follow them accordingly.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Let me ask a few questions, then...

1. I agree with gsmbh that we are not a police force. But... how do we go about policing ourselves? AND is there a real, genuine, appropriate incentive for rigorously policing ourselves? I think that MD's are good at it, I think lawyers are great at it. My main reasons for thinking this are that a) both of those professions pay A LOT better than engineering, b) the MD's have a much higher risk-to-reliability issue (a stat I just made up based on my own perceptions: say it's easier to pin a surgical mistake on the surgeon; pinning a structural failure on the structural engineer is more difficult since there are, one assumes, several layers of review and inspection over longer time periods than a surgical procedure), and c) lawyers ZEALOUSLY protect their profession to a degree that must be witnessed to be unerstood, I recommend jury duty to everyone as an eye-opener.

2. I also firmly agree with both gsmbh and JAE regarding my lack of engineering practice law AND I myself practice a "rules are rules" life philosophy in both my professional and private life. Rarely have I found others who do the same, though, especially project managers (yes, I have it in for them) whose deadlines and budget are REALLY important as opposed to doing what's right, etc. Along these lines will other engineers, INCLUDING those at the top of the heap (i.e., ASCE, et al, fellows or other executives) enforce this attitude?

3. Building on that, can we afford to be charitable to our fellow engineers? I'm a pretty chartiable person - once, if I recognize a pattern, charity is out the window.

 

[JAE]

Good points, Dave. I just want to be sure everyone understands that I'm not out for witch-hunts for all my fellow engineers. None of us are perfect and there are many ways to govern our profession and still protect the public.

But in this case, Watermelon suggested that this "person" was not really a "fellow engineer" but one who was practicing without a license. I would always feel that we, as engineers, should protect our profession, and the general public, from those who would try to design things that end up falling down or exploding due to their lack of expertise.

 

[corus]

I don't think the engineer is at fault but the person who checked the work, or the system that allowed the work to go unchecked. When someone is incompetent though it is normal practice to promote them to management, out of harms way. Recommend this.

 

[MMOT]

To me, it seems as though there are really 2 different issues:
1. Qualifiaction/Registration of the engineer in question
2. The apparent design error

I strongly agree with JAE that we are required to report unethical/unlicensed practices both by law and personal ethics and that it is in the best interest of the profession to do so.

But with respect to the second issue, the error itself, I would agree with gesmbh. Mistakes are not inherently unethical. They are mistakes. I have yet to produce, or see anyone else produce, that "Perfect Set" of plans. but most errors are less obvious or critical and are caught and corrected during construction. Before performing a witch-hunt I would "do unto others" and discuss the item privately with the engineer to give them the opportunity to "make it right". But if a pattern of serious errors emerges, or the engineer was unwilling to correct the situation, that would indicate to me a problem that should be reported in the interest of Public Safety

 

[fkd]

May I ask you all a few questions:

Wonder a country where:

1- You just need your BS degree in CE to start signing any kind of projects, ranging from eletrical (low tension) to structural as well all the sitework too;

2- There aren't any legal requirements for any kind of checking;

3- No legal requirements for training (EIT or anything alike);

4- There aren't any official regulatory agencies(we have just have set of basic standarts but no one are officially entitled to verify the conformity) nor any verifying requirements (sitework); sorry we do have a "board" that verifies your signature in a paper, the adequacy of your title and the required tax payment;

5- The builder, contractor and fabricator are not inspected for the correctness of their work;

and many more amazing situations, I would like to know your oppinion about being a structural engineer in a mess like this?


TIA

Fred

IMHO: as we use to say here, God is Brazilian.