Designing something in another state

[Thoughtclaw]

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question. I'm 99% sure I know the answer, but wanted to check.

I just became a PE last month, and am now serving as the staff engineer for a small contractor in Ohio. One of the first things I was asked to design was a foundation for a pit to hold a machine. The company that's having it built has been a longtime customer of my company, and I assumed they were building it at their local facility. They had no soil information, so I designed it for the minimum requirements. Well, I just found out they're planning to build it at a facility they own in Virginia. Now they're asking for stamped drawings, but I can't stamp a drawing for something that's being built in a state I'm not licensed in, correct?

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Correct. If you're going to be doing work in that state then I'd get a stamp and have your employers pay for it. If it's a one-off then look at getting a temp. stamp for Virginia. Either way, this may delay the project so I'd let your employer know that.

Another possible way out is having another engineer review and stamp your work. Be careful with this though; in some states this is acceptable but in most others this is plan stamping and not legal. Generally for this to work the stamping engineer was needed to be involved during to the design phase, which it seems they were. However, a few states (my home state of Maine for example) consider this acceptable and have rules allowing an engineer to stamp any work they didn't create as long as they review it fully and accept it as their own.

You've likely just learned an important lesson of working for a contractor on your own; get the full details of each and every project. It took me 2 years to beat that into the project managers at the precaster I work for. If they bid a project and know it needs engineering they now always reach out to me prior and ask for me to look things over for 5 minutes to find any pitfalls for engineering. Often I'll come back with a few items I need to ensure we can engineer it (project location, geotech report, project specifications, etc.)

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)
American Concrete Industries

https://americanconcrete.com/

 

[Thoughtclaw]

Thank you, Ian. That's very helpful. I'll just tell them they'll need to find someone with a Virginia license, and if he or she wants to review my work, I'll make it available to them.

And thanks for the insight about making sure I have all the information up front. As lessons go, I've had more expensive ones.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I'll just tell them they'll need to find someone with a Virginia license, and if he or she wants to review my work, I'll make it available to them.

Well, that's not what I said. I said to check if this is legal or not first. To save you the trouble I looked it up; short answer is this is not legal in VA:

18VAC10-20-760. Use of Seal.
A. Affixing of a professional seal, signature, and date shall indicate that the professional has exercised direct control and personal supervision over the work to which it is affixed. Affixing of the seal, signature, and date also indicates the professional's acceptance of responsibility for the work shown thereon.

1. No professional shall affix a seal, signature, and date or certification to a plan, plat, document, sketch, or other work constituting the practice of the professions regulated that has been prepared by an unlicensed or uncertified person unless such work was performed under the direct control and personal supervision of the professional while the unlicensed or uncertified person was an employee of the same firm as the professional or was under written contract to the same firm that employs the professional.

Emphasis mine.

So, not only would whoever stamps this be in violation; now that I've made you aware of the rules you would also violate your own ethical requirements if you associated yourself with an engineer you know to be doing something illegal.

To make this legal by my understanding they would need to be involved at the start of the design process and your company have a written contract with the stamping engineers firm.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)
American Concrete Industries

https://americanconcrete.com/

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

If I may; the best legal and practical recourse is likely to tell your boss you can't legally stamp the work and they should hire an engineer firm licensed in VA to redo the design and drawings from scratch. Since it sounds like a simple design I suspect this really wont be that much money to do this.

I'd also ask your boss to pay for you to get licensed in all the states that your company may do work in. You'll save yourself and your employers a lot of headaches if you have these licenses. This is why I have a pile of licenses all around New England and a few odd-ball states.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)
American Concrete Industries

https://americanconcrete.com/

 

[Thoughtclaw]

I certainly didn't mean that I would provide my work for them to simply stamp and send off. I just figured they could see what I did and then do their own work. But I see what you're saying.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Gotcha; that does make me feel better and you're right that if they can see your work it will help them understand the project better and possibly save them some time on the work.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)
American Concrete Industries

https://americanconcrete.com/

 

[Thoughtclaw]

I greatly appreciate your advice, Ian. Thanks!

 

[dhengr]

Thoughtclaw:
I think you are in a particularly difficult situation as a young, relatively inexperienced PE, working for a contractor. They will (many will) try to pull you and push you in seven different ways, to just ‘let’s get the job done, you don’t need those project details to do the design, etc.’ And, as TME suggests, you finally have to draw a line, stand your ground, and explain to them the conditions under which you will and can do these kinds of deigns and stampings. That’s your stamp/license and reputation, and that’s all you might have left if they ever decide to find another younger, cheaper engineer, they are a dime-a-dozen. Many contractors consider your involvement kinda secondary, an minor inconvenience in getting the job, and then getting-er-done. Don’t let them do that to you. When you are the only engineer, the company engineer, and maybe somewhat inexperienced in a broad range of design problems and codes, you would do well to find yourself a couple local mentors who you can talk with and bounce ideas off of. They should also have insurance which covers you in your actions as a PE on their behalf.

 

[JStephen]

It's pretty much the universal rule that if you are licensed in State A, live in State B, work in State C, and design any kind of "fixed" work in State D, the PE stamp needs to be for State D. But what was surprising to me long ago is how poorly, if at all, this was spelled out in a lot of the state rules. So you're not the first one to run into that issue.

 

[Thoughtclaw]

Thanks for the replies, dhengr and JStephen. I actually do have an experienced engineer I've been sending my designs to for review, who I did my EIT stint under.

Anyway, lesson learned.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Bravo; and you're using eng-tips to avoid pitfalls such as this. Sounds like you're doing this the right way.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)
American Concrete Industries

https://americanconcrete.com/

 

[ldeem]

This is a late reply but you really need to be careful here. Many contactors don't understand the importance of a PE stamp for the state in which the project is built. You also need to keep in mind your PE is a personal responsibility. If something is wrong, like a design error you are responsible not your employer. I would insist you be provided all the documents related to the E&O insurance they have taken out. E&O is expensive - don't be fooled by an employer claiming you are covered under General Liability or covered because of their LLC or other corporate structure.

Secondly, your drawing must always state the location of the project (and should have a site plan). What will keep you out of trouble is making sure the project location is on the drawing and is in a state you are licensed. This should give you some protection in the event someone takes your design that you thought was for state A and builds in in state B without your knowledge. In the case you mention above if you had stamped it in Ohio and your client presented it in Virginia to a building official you would find yourself in some a major problem. Depending on the locality it could be that a building official comes on site and starts asking questions.

I am in Ohio as well - there are some strict rules regarding firm license in order to advertise engineering services. As a PE they should be able to list you as the engineer in charge and get a firm authorization. Its not expensive and isn't very time consuming.