Digital seal/sign 2

[hawkaz]

The City of Denver (and a few other cities I found doing a google search) is requesting that we digitally seal our plans/calcs (I have no problem with that)
The catch is that they want the digital seal to be unlocked.
I though the purpose of digital seals was to make sure nobody could manipulate the plans. Doesn't sending unlocked plans negate this?

 

[NorthCivil]

Sounds like a municipal bureaucrat just asking for more, more and more, as typically they get what they ask for.

I would refuse, and forward the written request to your state board.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Anything I've digitally signed, I have locked. The only exception is when I've made a mistake and forgotten to lock it....

 

[Lomarandil]

Same as NorthCivil, although I'd probably iterate it a few times with the City and pushing it up their management chain before getting DORA involved.

----
The name is a long story -- just call me Lo.

 

[skeletron]

I always make an effort of digitally signing/stamping last in the process so I can lock the document and prevent further modifications. It causes a bit of frustration from others in our office because they can't append my structural package with the electrical. Sometimes I make exceptions, but I wouldn't send it out of office unlocked.

I'm not a big fan of our digital signing procedure, but do it because there is little to no alternative. We need a subscription based software program that is a drag to use. Some people get away with flattening the PDF, which works but is not an "approved" method. The only other option is wet stamping, but the procedure for 3 copies of 20+ packages takes more time than you'd think.

 

[RHTPE]

I submit PDF files - LOCKED.
I've only had one entity complain. I took a firm stand - if you want it signed & sealed it'll be locked. If you want it unlocked, there will be no seal & signature. The issue died after that response.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I do a lot of sub-consulting for fabricators and contractors, they generally wouldn't accept me locking a PDF so they couldn't include it in their submittal packages in a combined PDF. I use a flattened PDF. If I sent them wet stamped files they'd just scan them into a PDF anyway so I might as well save everyone the trouble.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)

 

[CANPRO]

If someone wants to alter your plans or steal your stamp, they'll find a way. I could do all kinds of nefarious stuff with windows snipping tool and Bluebeam if I really wanted to. With a locked pdf, someone could print the drawings then literally cut and paste their changes and scan the drawing - I get scanned copies of drawings all the time and don't think much of it.

I suppose if a project or company had a policy that you only work from or extract information from locked pdf's, it would be effective - but at least in my line of work, that would be impractical.

The securities around digital stamping are kind of like fences - it only keeps the honest people out.

 

[Settingsun]

Genuinely interested in why this is so sensitive since signing drawings is the exception rather than rule for me, and we often send CAD/Revit versions with nothing more than a written disclaimer.

Are you worried about sneaky changes, or worried about people copying your work?

What sort of/how many such dodgy people operate in the American industry?

 

[dauwerda]

At my previous employer we used a third party software for digitally signing and sealing pdf's. Once sealed the document would be locked, however it still gave you the option to make modifications, it just broke the digital signature (with a warning first). If I remember correctly once the changes were made (whatever they might be, often times red lines for as-builts) when you opened the document it would tell you that it was previously a signed and sealed document but due to changes was no longer valid.

 

[RHTPE]

From my perspective all I'm trying to establish is that the drawing, as submitted when it left my OutBox, was as I intended it.

Yes, someone can do amazing things with a snipping tool, PhotoShop, etc. to modify the content of the drawing once they have it, including lifting my seal for use elsewhere.

I doubt that there are many who would do so. Nonetheless, should an issue wind up in front of the person with the black robe, I have the means to prove exactly what was issued to my client. I cannot control what happens after that drawing left my OutBox, nor should I be held liable for those changes. It's just a policy of throwing up as many 'road blocks' as is practical.


Ralph
Structures Consulting
Northeast USA

 

[XR250]

If someone wants to alter your plans or steal your stamp, they'll find a way. I could do all kinds of nefarious stuff with windows snipping tool and Bluebeam if I really wanted to. With a locked pdf, someone could print the drawings then literally cut and paste their changes and scan the drawing - I get scanned copies of drawings all the time and don't think much of it.

I suppose if a project or company had a policy that you only work from or extract information from locked pdf's, it would be effective - but at least in my line of work, that would be impractical.

The securities around digital stamping are kind of like fences - it only keeps the honest people out.

My feelings exactly. It is a bunch of nonsense and I refuse to lock anything until I get caught. Heck, I can go order a seal with anyone's name and number on it.

 

[TheDW]

Our office has had 2 instances of our company drawings being used without our knowledge/consent in the past 3 months...an architect didn't want to pay us for a redesign after some changes by the owner, so he printed our drawings, taped an updated plan of his own over our plan, and scanned it back in with our titleblock/seal showing.

Another client took hours/days to replicate an entire 2 pages of our details (we don't send CAD files...), keeping every single letter of the language and line of the drawings the same...and then printed them under someone else's titleblock.

Both instances we 'accidentally' found out about, by being inadvertently notified by other parties involved in the projects...I'm sure if we knew the full extent of what some of these shady characters are doing with our drawings I'd have a heart attack.

I used to think it was petty to not want to share CAD files, but not anymore.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

I'm interested in WHY they would ever ask for such a thing. I would comply because... whatever... i've got my copy.... but that seems like a bull crap ask.