Disturbance recorder in new systems 5

[slavag]

Dear All.
Today all newer relays are include disturbance recorder.
I read many documents about used or not dedicated disturbance recorder.
What is your expirience? What is your opinion?
BTW, same for the digital event recorder.
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards.
Slava

 

[rbulsara]

Depends on the application, the voltage levels and the intent and alos the qualification of persons touching the relays. If you can be more specific about your application, you will get more beneficial answers.

Modern relays are adequate for "event" recordings not for continuous monitoring or even disturbance recordings.

There may be many "disturbance" events that could affect the loads, but not necessarily operate the protective relays. I am sure you can setup data logger on many digital relays, but I would hate to mess with protective relays to retrieve power quality related data.
But they are certainly capable of doing the job.

Dedicated PQM are also expensive and take up valuable space.

 

[Yuma]

Hi Slava;

In my opinion it is necessary to use disturbance recorders, no matter what relays you are using. Recorders are more powerful than relays and can be used for power quality measurements also. I personally like Areva's Bitronics - no, I don't work for Areva

Regards

 

[jghrist]

There may be many "disturbance" events that could affect the loads, but not necessarily operate the protective relays.

It may be possible to trigger an event report through relay logic for an event that is completely unrelated to the operation of the protective relay. For instance, if you were not using an available undervoltage element for protection, you could set it to trigger a voltage sag event.

 

[dpc]

I think the stand-alone fault recorders and power quality meters are useful additions and are appropriate for larger substations with multiple transmission lines.

The digital relays have fairly limited memory for storage of waveforms and events. The stand-alone units are much more capable and provide an independent device to monitor the power system.

If you use only the relays, the system monitoring is totally dependent on the A/D converters and algorithms in the relays. I have seen cases where a digital relay became seriously confused dealing with transient events leading to misoperation of the relay. This is difficult to sort out if the only fault data was captured by the same relay that misoperated.

We don't see DFRs in distribution substations or industrial facilities, but we do use separate power quality meters in most cases.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[rbulsara]

Cost is relative so without knowing the application and what information you want to collect and analyse, the rest is speculation.

I have a client that has installed expensive PQM on input and output of a 50kVA UPS!!!

 

[slavag]

Dear Folks.
Thank a lot for your opinions and ideas. It's very helpful.
Last years we used DR from relay only, with connection to SCADA with automatic uploader option ( by event or by time cycle). But few times ( and of course in the critical cases ) I see, it's not so enough. Limited options, limited memory, overwrite or saturation logik impact on the flexibility of recording data. I thinked before, used dedicated DR only from 220kV and above, but I fill it needed for the all voltage levels ( maybe in lot of cases only voltage from BB's and infeeds). And of course with PQ functionality.
Thanks again.
P.S. Yuma, thanks for the recommendation.
I check now option of Sherlog of KoCos, but see in future.

Best Regards.
Slava

 

[REM76]

Check the EATON Power Expert meter/recorder.

 

[slavag]

Hello.
RBulsara:
"Cost is relative so without knowing the application and what information you want to collect and analyse, the rest is speculation.
I have a client that has installed expensive PQM on input and output of a 50kVA UPS!!! "

I would like add this type of recorder only ( in the first step) to systems with utilities-local generators with parallel and island mode operation, decoupling and load shedding system and maybe with some HBT systems for the motor bus. And record only voltage/frequency data on the HV and MV levels.
Best Regards.
Slava

 

[rbulsara]

slava:

Thank you for clarifying the application. While it should be your decision, but it seems that the cost of a dedicated PQM can be justified in such an application.

Rafiq

 

[slavag]

Hi Folks.
Rafiq: isn't my decition, I only recommend to customer.

OK.
I read again few documents and recommend this solution to my customer. He would like check this option.
I found in the google few good DFR's ( I hope)
Kokos- Sherlog
Qualitrol- BEN600
Ametek - TR-100
Weis- FR100
REM76 recommended Eaton, but I didn't found it.

According to avalible data, those DFR's are suitble for our application ( up to 32 AI in one box. memory, triggers, combination with DSR and PQM, etc.).
We need only one box solution, with GPS synchronization and connection to remote HMI via Etherner.
Do you someone have expereince with those DFR's?
Do you recommend me some others?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards.
Slava

 

[lz5pl]

Good cost-effective solution would be power quality recorder VAMP260 from finish company VAMP. And if you choose it please remind them to include my commission ;-)


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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[subtech]

We have had very good service from the Areva/Bitronics M571/M871 series units. They are very versatile.
Each unit has trending, DFR(2), and disturbance recorders(2) and lots of memory.(up to 128 MB). Ethernet,RS485, RS232 (com ports are configurable and totally independent) Modbus on one, DNP on the other, and DNP or Modbus on IP at the same time.
We use them on gen's, transmission lines, distrubution feeders(in tandem with protective relays).
Support and quality are absolutely first rate.

No, I don't work for Areva/Bitronics either.

 

[521AB]

Hello,
I have replied several days ago on this topic, but it seems something went wrong.
I'll try again.

Integrated disturbance recorders in the protective relays are a must. The fault recorder is the most important information for post-fault analysis. You really can see what "the relay" has seen and have the possibility to analyze the behavior or to change settings, if it was maloperation due to settings problem.

Substation disturbance recorders are also useful, but to my experience NOT for the relay engineer. The amount of information they can give is limited (most of the internal relay signals are not available there), and you cannot use them for any fault analysis, as the station disturbance recorder is not connected to relay's CTs and VTs.
Sometimes it is good to double check.

If I had my substation, I would not invest on a substation recorder. What is the purpose for it?