DL PLC QUERY 2

[vanskat]

I have migrated over from the motor controls forum to get some insight on DL micro PLC's.

I am product hunting and having a bit of trouble choosing between the DL205 and the DL405. I have seen the spec sheets and other threads but need to know the practical and fundamental differneces between them...

I am going PLC + OIT route and have chosen the EZ touch primarily due to driver support. Some of my issues are:

a. choosing relevant part numbers for the application
b. compatability
c. sofware support
d. opitons

Say I have 16 each of AO,AI,DO,DI, what would be the process of choosing part numbers to support this?

 

[AGomaa]

Basically the two PLCs work good, I have good record working with both.
Most of the I/O modules that for 405 series are avialable for the 205 series (the general use ones). If the 205 can satisfy your need you gain 1) price difference 2) space saving. However it is not always the case specially for big systems.
Start with your requirement.
-I.e state what is your I/O (quantity & type)you may find that your I/O is not aviable in certain PLC.
-state your peripherals you may interface with (serial coms, printers etc...
- what is the programming capabilities you are looking for (does it include real number, etc. some instructions are available for certain CPU only.
- Does scan time matter!
and so on state all your needs and constrains.
Then see if you can satisfy the needs with the following:
1- series 205 2) series 305 and 405
The reason for including 305 that in some cases the system build in 305 is cheaper than both 405 and 205. for small size projects 205 is best for bigger system 405 much suitable
Each PLC has its pros and cons. Also do not forget that in each you have a good selection of CPU power.
For your I/O count
This is general selection only (no power supply checked etc…)
D2-250-1 @249$
D2-09B-1 @180
D2-16ND3-2 @ 78
D2-16TD1-2 @81
F2-08AD1 @233 (x2)
F2-08DA1 @289 (x2)
D2-FILL @7 (x2)
Total 1646$

D4-440 @518
D4-RAM-1 @97
D4-04B-1 @103
D4-16ND2 @93
D4-16TD1 @115
F4-AD1 @516
F4-16DA1 @580
Total 2022$
As you can see one module in D4 can handel 16 analog I/O vers 8 only in the D2.
you can install max 8 modules in one D4 base but for D3 you can have up to 9 modules
$ value is not the correct way to select a PLC, if the 205 satisfy your need go for it if not drop it.
what I do is state my requirments and constrains and size a complete system from all avilable PLC (D4, D3, D2 etc)


Hope that this clear it a bit
if you have specific question just ask.

 

[skills]

Well Agromaa certainly done well his the module list, I like the DL205 and the DL405 family. I have yet to really need but 1 module in the 405 that doesn't exist in the 205 family and that was a pulse counter 1 mhz board. Now the 205 family has it as well. Save the money and plan for a 205 rack with the 240, 250 or 260 processor and you'll be in good shape. I build fairly large robotic assembly cells with several 9 slot 205 racks loaded with 8 channels analog and 80 dig I/O points and touch screen interface. The DL205 family is simply a win. I quess the DL405 has a place; but, I've never seen the application where a job was too big for the 205 but right for the 405. I'd love to hear about the specifics of one though!!

 

[AGomaa]

Agree with Skills, I found the 205 is very flax and have a lot. for most of applications 205 would cover your requirement however for some things like PID loops (more than 16 loop ), something like the F4-4LTC the 405 is nice.
the most I like about the 440 and 450 that I can have the memory cartirdge in my bocket, plug it in and the modification is done. In this regard the UV is very useful to prevent field program modifications!!
I build a system with full redundant scheme for more than 600 I/O and I found that the 405 is more suitable.

Another point: if you build panels for clients; FOR SOME SITUATION, some client would like to see some thing BIG in the panel and they compare the AB PLC size to the small 205!! So each application is kind of unique.

 

[vanskat]

Let me see if I have gotten this down.

D2-09B-1: 9 slot base, local I/O expandable. This is what I start with which means there are 9 slots that can accept 9 modules one of which would be the cpu. Voltage 110/220VAC

D2-250-1: cpu that would reside in 1st slot of base above. Why the D2-250-1 cpu and not say a D2-260?

D2-16ND3-2: 16 point DC input module

D2-16TD1-2: 16 point DC output module. What would be a practical example of using this module?

F2-08AD1: 8 channel analog input module Isn't this operated @24VDC? How would this reside in the base stated above? Would a D2-09BDC1-1 be used intead?

F2-08DA1: 8 channel analog input module. Sink or source output configurable

* What is win PLC

* What about PC-PGM-205 and D2-DSCBL for the programming aspect with DirectSoft32?

Are manuals included in the purchase of the various modules? For example for the modules listed above are the following manuals provided: D2-ANLG-M, D2-INST-M, D2-USER-M

This is quite alot to start with so I will reserve my ethernet questions until the next time..........

 

[bbartson]

To "vanskat": I work for a pc-based control software company (Entivity) that has worked with the AutomationDirect (AD.com) products for 7 years. We helped them poineer ethernet based IO with the 205 family first and today we have ethernet/devicenet/profibus interfaces for almost all the families. We have had great success targeting client with their IO. From a pc-based control perspective AD.com IO is THE MOST cost effective and easy to use (thanks to our software too). Getting to your question, "What is winPLC?". The WinPLC is a processor that goes in slot 0 and replaces a PLC cpu. It runs WIndowsCE OS and is basically a PC in a PLC form-factor. The WinPLC will run logic developed with Entivity 'Studio' or 'Live' pc-based control software. The logic is developed via flowcharts instead of ladder. The WinPLC has a built-in ethernet port that you can read/write tags via our OPC server (or DCOM), built-in serial support and expansion that is easier to use than any plc methods (using Entiviy software once again). You can ask the AD.com support guys about the Entivity programming software, they sell it direct. If you want to find out more about existing applications using the AD.com IO and WinPLC check out our web site

http://www.entivity.com/case_studies.asp

 

[skills]

Great posts Guys, I forgot that some PID resources are more efficient on the DL405 family, thanks. The Analog modules mentioned above generally come in 2 supply level flavors. One requires 12vdc while the others are 24vdc, just to allow a little flexibility. I didn't understand your question about the D2-16TD1, explain again please. WINPLC is great product using Windows for EMBEDDED CONTROLS hence termed CE, why not EC I don't know. It's a rom based OS like Windows that allows us to pick our own automation providers and do things our way. Requires lots of study into the API to use some facilites, great approach once you get into this. The manuals on listed modules are available for download on website without even buying the hardware. Try that with AB. I like THINK-N_DO but Entivity appears to be a great system. Look at the systems cost difference this way between 205 and 405. At the end the high end I/O modules will probably be the difference. The cpu cost difference is much smaller than large I/O count difference; but, the 405 does still have modules that are more powerful because they have a higher perception of cost built in. I hope this helps some.

 

[vanskat]

Skills
Browsing thru the site I seemed to have answered most of my initial questions. I guess I should have spent more time dowloading and reading those manuals before I started the thread. Anyhow I feel much more comfortable with the hardware side of things.


In terms of software, I have downloaded demo versions of DirectSoft 32 and EZTOUCH-EDIT. Are these tools the most effective way of programming the PLC and OIT respectively...............................

If not what is the preferred tool by consensus..I am a bit curious about how tedious the software aspect will be..

 

[skills]

Directsoft32 is a very efficient package and I have found it to lack very little. If more functionality is needed to support a new module, they update your package to include the tools. I have found that most can begin designing a system using the software in several hours. It allows different perspectives on the code such as STAGE, instruction, and ladder. Drum editors are built in and autotuning is included. Unlike companies that piecemeal a development system, they intend on supporting all development needs from one package. EZ-TOUCH EDIT is a good editor for developmenting OPERATOR interface systems. I have less experience with it; but, I used it the first time just by fiddling without reading the manual so that speaks fairly well of its ease. You can buy the 05,105,205 version of directsoft for $195 I think while the full ALL family version is $495 and supports everything from the bottom to the top. This is the only difficult choice to make here!!

I don't want to sound flip; but, unless you sure nuf have a large application, I imagine you can do it all it 1 day or 2 at the most, unless PLC programming is brand new to you.
Anyone here can help you with any technical questions about development and you'll be in good hands.

 

[vanskat]

Appreciate it.

You will be hearing on project progress as soon as it gets off the ground....

 

[vanskat]

What sort of limitations should I expect with this DL205 PLC. I was requested to implement a scheme where a report would be produced after each batch process. I interpret this as the PLC dumping data to a PC (some applicable database) which would then print the data.

Could this be achieved directly by PLC to printer without the PC interface? I would imagine so...

I was thinking of the PC for archival purposes. Maybe 3 months down the road a person would like to see process data for a particular batch...Does this make sense?

 

[AGomaa]

Writing a report directly from the PLC can be done (CPU with ASCII output + serial printer). PLC storing data for history is also possible; however remember that the report data have to be stored in the PLC so if your report includes lot of data you will not be able to store long logs. (batch number + batch data+ time&date)
Estimate the memory needed for your report data and memory locations needed for the program usage and see if the 205 variable memories can satisfy this. (not the program size)
Dumping the data into PC is more practical but only if the project is not overburden.
See also their DDE package that allows you to communicate with the 205 with EXCEL or VB.
If you plan to work with AD PLCs I would recommend to buy the full version of Directsoft, the reason is simple: you will have a feeling of other CPUs capabilities even without buying them, you can experience the differences in instructions.
If you will be connected to PC all the time, think of PC control also.
The options are unlimited; it depend on what you want to build, at what cost and your future plans.
Good Luck.

 

[skills]

Several options as to data logging. If you want high-end performance, for $259 slide in ethernet module and you may access anything you want on the network. You could use directsoft DDE server. The server allows DDE capable applications such as excel, works, word, access or any database to ask plc something about 'line_speed' v2006 or something and server goes gets it. This route would save you the cost of ethernet module if using cpu with spare 232 port. Short answer, the DL205 is as connectable ethernet, 422, directnet, DDE OLE OPC servers as they get. The DL405 has nothing on it here and AB isn't even in the running unless you buy $600 of stuff to start. You know, I hate to say this now; but, you need to look at LOOKOUT direct for a SCADA system. This will supercharge your data access and give you the pinacle of flexibility and growth.

 

[vanskat]

skills,

If I am going to buy a $3000 15" EZtouch panel why not get the LOOKOUT DIRECT PACKAGE. It seems that it will handle all I require and more..(datalogging, trending, historizing, report generation..) and even seems a whole lot eaiser, doesn't it?

Not too late though. Anyway how has it worked for you? What kind of support would I need apart from a PC?

I guess the following would suffice: PC-LKD-DEV, PC-LKD-RTE and PC-DL-PLUS..........................................

 

[skills]

I concur, either way is good choice. It depends on how much personal computer storage, interface, what have you that you want. You won't be hurt either way, remember that the EZ touch panel applications may limit some opportunities; but, most applications never stretch its ability. I vote that you stay-pat with the Touch Panel. They are cool, easy to use, convenient, and about like a personal computer anyway. The one you're buying is a little more advanced than I used last year anyway. I think that the LOOKOUT package I saw the other day included 1-runtime, check me out and see so you can save a few hundred bucks. I'll look myself.

 

[skills]

Ok, I may have confused. DEV- the development package includes 1-runtime license, so if you never need to develop again you may develop on your target and CTRL-E to enter RUN mode and air-u-go you're done. This would save $995 for now, anyway. Still, having a touch screen is a lot of fun and my employer likes me to use them more than personal computers, so it's still your preference.