Do people ask Consultants for the Design Model ? 2

[elinwood]

I used to work for an oil and gas EPC as a Structural Engineer. The normal practice is I would model something in Staad and analyze it. When the results are out, I would compile all of the results along with my analysis and any commentaries in a pdf file and compile it into a zip file as deliverable to the client.

I have recently switched sides and am now working for a real estate development company - still as a structural engineer. I was wondering if it's common practice for the real estate industry to request the ETABS model from the structural engineering consultant ? Is it even ethical ?

 

[jdgengineer]

In my experience the only one who really cares about the calcs is the plan reviewer. The owner typically requests calcs to have filed away but I've never seen them review. Typically, I've submitted just the print outs for etabs with the results summarized etc. Occasionally, I've been asked by the plan reviewer or peer reviewer for the Etabs model and have given it to them.

Personally, I'm surprised more people don't ask for the model. It's pretty impossible (for me at least) to obtain much useful information from pages of ETABS output.

 

[GregLocock]

Different industry, but yes, I'd expect to be given the model willingly if it has discrepancies, or fails by eye, in ways that the guy who prepared it can't explain for free.

If you want to make sure model transfer happens write it into your contract.



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[elinwood]

I agree, the ideal case would be to have it written in the contract. That's water under the bridge though - the contract was already drafted & signed before I got into the company. In the previous company that I worked for, the consultant actually declined our requests for the model. Unfortunately, the company has paid off the contract before I starter working there and was just asked to review their design (Yes, their design was terrible - a spaghetti model without all ends moment released & pin base connection just looking at their report)

I don't see the big deal though - if they did their design correctly, why would they decline the request?

 

[CELinOttawa]

Sometimes this is a matter of avoiding professional tit-for-tat. When I worked in Kingston, we were asked for calculations by a major client and the firm (not a job I worked on) refused. I expressed surprise and my boss explained it simply that it can only result in:

1. Questions we'll be expected to answer for free on the justification that we are expected to explain what is not clear.
2. Another engineer's criticism of anywhere we have been conservative.
3. Another engineer's criticism of anywhere we have been even 0.1% under code value, despite always being conservative in load development.
4. If a client does not ask for this up front, we cannot price to offset costs. Insisting after the fact means they are not a client we want to pursue repeat business from.
5. Another engineer gains access to all of our methods and any shortcuts or unique details we have developed.

Effectively this can only lead to lost productivity and profit. There is nothing to be gained for the firm. All of these arguments apply equally or nearly so to sharing a model.

 

[Ron]

elinwood....careful there! Depends on where you are licensed and practicing.

A model file is something that can be changed. In some states, that's a no-no. You can only provide a design product that is in a non-changeable format, such as a compilation, a report or a drawing. Electronic files are not commonly provided to the client. They are your work product and should be excluded by contract. You own your documents unless you give up that ownership in the contract. Not a good idea to do so.

 

[paddingtongreen]

On one job, we provided photocopies of the whole ball of wax, each original had been stamped in red, "This statement is printed in red on the original of record."

Michael.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." ~ Tim Minchin

 

[jike]

Talk to your liability underwriter.

I would be very leary of giving them an electronic file. I
would FIRST have them sign A LEGAL RELEASE FROM ALL LIABILITY. You loose all control over what might be done with this file in the future. As we enter a new era (fabrication directly from electronic files with little in no oversight) YOU NEED A RELEASE FROM LIABILITY. We all know that engineering models may not be EXACT DIMENSIONS but good enough for structural calculations. Also make clkear that drawings and calcs and files are ONLY REFERENCE and NOT TO BE REUSED at any other site except that shown on this site plan, nor under any other code.

 

[JAE]

Not exactly the same topic - but close - brings back memories of a nice long thread of thought:

thread507-89434



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[msquared48]

I give the client a copy of the calculations and drawings to file with the local jurisdiction and for his records as a matter of courtesy.

However, the program input files that produced the output in the calculations remain in my office, on my computers, unchanged.

Mike McCann, PE, SE

 

[countervail]

Nice to see the US side. Just for interest, in the UK calculations must be submitted on the local building control office to gain building regs approval (and are publicly available), but we have nothing like your seal system.

It's always done better in England (with this one exception where you chaps seem to have got it right and we have it dead wrong)

 

[BUGGAR]

Watch out for typical government contracts. They have words like, "The (government body) retains ownership of all instruments of design".

 

[msquared48]

Not the unstamped originals... Only a stamped copy. Otherwise, no contract.

Mike McCann, PE, SE