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GregLocock
Automotive
TLDR - 26 tested, 25 failed, most long before a nominal 10 year life.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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Domestic Batteries for on-grid solar 3
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TLDR - 26 tested, 25 failed, most long before a nominal 10 year life.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Coming in with no context w.r.t. to the blog, but the results didn't necessarily ring alarm bells in some sense
> The blogger was apparently expecting much better capacity degradation performance than actually measured -- I don't know whether that expectation was necessarily justified -- many of the batteries seemingly were on track to meet the specified end-of-life (EOL) capacity of 60%
> I would separate the "failures" from the capacity question in an engineering discussion -- one major issue is that a 10-yr lifetime requires roughly a mean time between failure of 95 years to achieve a 90% reliability
> The bigger issue was that some of these companies were too small to necessarily have done all the engineering and design to make everything work
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
> The blogger was apparently expecting much better capacity degradation performance than actually measured -- I don't know whether that expectation was necessarily justified -- many of the batteries seemingly were on track to meet the specified end-of-life (EOL) capacity of 60%
> Given the nature of the accelerated testing and whether such conditions didn't cause excessive degradation, the capacity results weren't necessarily alarming
> Note that accelerated life typically requires lots of units tested just to figure out what the acceleration factor is in the first place
> I would separate the "failures" from the capacity question in an engineering discussion -- one major issue is that a 10-yr lifetime requires roughly a mean time between failure of 95 years to achieve a 90% reliability
> That's not necessarily unachievable, but given the accelerated life conditions, it's not clear to me whether those conditions were excessively harsh. We've (the royal one) obviously have achieved reliabilities on that order in satellites and other hardware
> Note that acceleration factors for battery might result in a different acceleration factor for the electronics, etc., so one has to be very precise about what the true results were and how to interpret them
> The bigger issue was that some of these companies were too small to necessarily have done all the engineering and design to make everything work
> Accelerated life testing is where we find out whether our design assumptions were correct and to fix them if they weren't -- unfortunately, if the company goes belly up, then the lesson is never learned and no corrective actions will have taken place
TTFN (ta ta for now)
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- #3
GregLocock
Automotive
Well now you've got me wondering what the usage profile for an on-grid battery looks like. i suppose that is very dependent on how the controller/smart meter is programmed.
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Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
We do know, I think, that the effect of speed of cycling on a battery is nonlinear on its performance and likely its lifespan
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
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- #6
GregLocock
Automotive
My electricity provider claims the average electricity usage for a 2 occupant house is 17 kWh a day, at this time of year (winter) a 5kW solar system gives about half that.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
I have a BYD H box.
That hard cycling of any battery is going to kill it.
The way I have mine set up is it starts charging at about 10 am and then its done by lunch and it does it an C0.6 but the BYD BMS looks after it. Then hours later when the sun goes down it discharges.
I would have thought the charging/discharge electronics would be sitting at max 24 h using this testing profile. Same with the battery chemistry.
I might change the charging release time so it gets a slow charge as the sun comes up.
That hard cycling of any battery is going to kill it.
The way I have mine set up is it starts charging at about 10 am and then its done by lunch and it does it an C0.6 but the BYD BMS looks after it. Then hours later when the sun goes down it discharges.
I would have thought the charging/discharge electronics would be sitting at max 24 h using this testing profile. Same with the battery chemistry.
I might change the charging release time so it gets a slow charge as the sun comes up.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Does the hard cycling exceed the ratings of the battery? Perhaps we need better standardization of the definitions of capacity.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
There is its in kWh but the USA solar lot tend to use amp hours. Which is mainly linked to the utter panic when you start talking about triple figure voltages so a lot especially DIY run at around 48V.
The charge and discharge, is done with a C value. So using my battery as an example which is a 6.4 kWh its C value its charging is 0.6C so the max it will accept is 3.7 kW. Discharge it can do 1C so 6.4kW I think it can also do 1.2C for a period.
Again this isn't generally used in the USA they talk about amps.
I have had a look at my battery's paper work and no it won't be exceeded. But the carrier is that it comes with a BMS which has temp probes to the cells and does vary the charge and discharge rates with battery charge level and temperature. Between 10% and 90% its the book figures but outside that it changes things.
The charge and discharge, is done with a C value. So using my battery as an example which is a 6.4 kWh its C value its charging is 0.6C so the max it will accept is 3.7 kW. Discharge it can do 1C so 6.4kW I think it can also do 1.2C for a period.
Again this isn't generally used in the USA they talk about amps.
I have had a look at my battery's paper work and no it won't be exceeded. But the carrier is that it comes with a BMS which has temp probes to the cells and does vary the charge and discharge rates with battery charge level and temperature. Between 10% and 90% its the book figures but outside that it changes things.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
That's exactly the problem, there isn't a standardized definition. KWh is really the only number that matters. Ah is used because batteries tend to operate at lower voltages than the system so you can call out a higher Ah to give an inflated capacity number.
And when you have battery systems that don't tolerate deep cycling such as lead acid you really need to divide your capacity by 2 or more.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
There is in the rest of the world.
But you do seem to have a hardcore that doesn't want to play the game.
They also want everyone else to follow US electrical regulations. Enphase were trying to lobby the EU to go for a standardised safety and limitations for domestic solar which would have made microinverters and optimisers be pretty much mandatory.
Thankfully the Austrian and German inverter manufactures put that nonsense to rest.
But you do seem to have a hardcore that doesn't want to play the game.
They also want everyone else to follow US electrical regulations. Enphase were trying to lobby the EU to go for a standardised safety and limitations for domestic solar which would have made microinverters and optimisers be pretty much mandatory.
Thankfully the Austrian and German inverter manufactures put that nonsense to rest.
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- #12
GregLocock
Automotive
AGM lead acids you should only use 50%, according to the standard blurb. If you look at the DoD vs number of cycles curve it doesn't really cost much more per kWh over the life of an AGM battery whether you use 80% DoD or 50%.
and here's someone who's run the numbers
The danger of course with using 80% routinely is that one day you leave the pump running overnight and then everything shuts down. (Ahem)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
and here's someone who's run the numbers
The danger of course with using 80% routinely is that one day you leave the pump running overnight and then everything shuts down. (Ahem)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
It seems to be only off grid that run 12/48V home made battery gear which use wet battery's in europe.
When I went through the options 3 years ago LIPo4Fe had clear advantages on all fronts apart from temperature window and charge rate.
That is my limitations. I have stuck mine in a constant 20 deg cellar. I get 95% discharge off a 6.4 kWh high voltage battery.
Most of the big names are NMC. Which I suspect in 5 years time there will be lots of noise as they start needing replaced as a lot of people seem to have it in their heads that they are going to get 15-20 years out of them. If they fail just after the 10 year warranty is up then they will be lucky to recuperate the investment.
If you did a spread sheet with life cycles, capacity, cost LiPo4Fe clearly came out on top but then they had the highest up front cost until Tesla power wall came along and China started producing 12V wet replacements in Lipo4Fe. But the 12 V ones are a bit dodgy because they each have an internal BMS and things can happen if you try and charge them in series. The solar battery industry world wide is miss selling rather wildly. When you add in the DIY battery packs some of which are disasters waiting to happen they whole thing is a bit of mess.
My hybrid inverter had 2 compatible at the time one NCA the other the BYD liPo4Fe and i wasn't going to go AC couples. 3 years on more by luck than judgement it looks like I went for the best option.
When I went through the options 3 years ago LIPo4Fe had clear advantages on all fronts apart from temperature window and charge rate.
That is my limitations. I have stuck mine in a constant 20 deg cellar. I get 95% discharge off a 6.4 kWh high voltage battery.
Most of the big names are NMC. Which I suspect in 5 years time there will be lots of noise as they start needing replaced as a lot of people seem to have it in their heads that they are going to get 15-20 years out of them. If they fail just after the 10 year warranty is up then they will be lucky to recuperate the investment.
If you did a spread sheet with life cycles, capacity, cost LiPo4Fe clearly came out on top but then they had the highest up front cost until Tesla power wall came along and China started producing 12V wet replacements in Lipo4Fe. But the 12 V ones are a bit dodgy because they each have an internal BMS and things can happen if you try and charge them in series. The solar battery industry world wide is miss selling rather wildly. When you add in the DIY battery packs some of which are disasters waiting to happen they whole thing is a bit of mess.
My hybrid inverter had 2 compatible at the time one NCA the other the BYD liPo4Fe and i wasn't going to go AC couples. 3 years on more by luck than judgement it looks like I went for the best option.
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The worst part is that the people selling these things, can't even answer my first five questions.
Not that I am counting the number of questions. Just that they have no technical depth to answer.
I also seem to have to explain to people, over and over, that car batteries are not storage batteries.
Not that I am counting the number of questions. Just that they have no technical depth to answer.
I also seem to have to explain to people, over and over, that car batteries are not storage batteries.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Don't forget Greg that a lead acid battery is always losing capacity so today's 50% cycle could be tomorrow's 80%.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
I bought mine of a company called mg solar in Germany.
Must admit he was very knowledgeable on all of the solar stuff. And also persuaded me to go for 6.4 kWh not bigger. And he was right if I had gone bigger it would never have paid itself off.
I put 1200 kWh through my battery every year which is 400 euro. I bought it for 4200 euro. Next size up would have been 5500 euro
Must admit he was very knowledgeable on all of the solar stuff. And also persuaded me to go for 6.4 kWh not bigger. And he was right if I had gone bigger it would never have paid itself off.
I put 1200 kWh through my battery every year which is 400 euro. I bought it for 4200 euro. Next size up would have been 5500 euro
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
The wet lead acid battery bank is almost a cult religion.
The amount of heavy duty wire they use and chargers etc.
Then there is the regular maint required. The weight of them and the volume they take up.
I can't see how they can be cost effective. Especially if you take labour into account. Distilled battery water isn't cheap to boot.
The amount of heavy duty wire they use and chargers etc.
Then there is the regular maint required. The weight of them and the volume they take up.
I can't see how they can be cost effective. Especially if you take labour into account. Distilled battery water isn't cheap to boot.
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- #18
GregLocock
Automotive
On the other hand I have a 'legacy' 12v system using flooded cells which are 40 years old and still work fine. OK each 2V cell weighs 80 kg...
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
davidbeach
Electrical
Them flooded cell lead-acid batteries are what keeps the lights on...
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I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
FLA has a lot of advantages. They aren't prone to fire, number one. They may sound like an environmental disaster in a box, but the lead is very recyclable and acids aren't particularly difficult to neutralize and dispose of.
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