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Drone footage of Italian EQ in Pescara del Tronto
- Thread starter JAE
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msquared48
Structural
I guess people on the news are complaining and asking how this devastation could happen in a highly seismic area where the buildings are supposed to be earthquake resistant. These people do not seem to get it that it takes money to fix the vulnerable buildings, money the owners may not have and do not want to spend.
I guess some people do not listen to structural engineers either.
They just listen to the money.
Unreinforced masonry is a problem there, here, and everywhere earthquakes happen.
Seems like some things never change...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
I guess some people do not listen to structural engineers either.
They just listen to the money.
Unreinforced masonry is a problem there, here, and everywhere earthquakes happen.
Seems like some things never change...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
- Thread starter
- #3
With older towns, and in this case perhaps, an historical village with centuries old masonry, this is the result I guess.
I seems at first glance to me that it would be impossible to upgrade these old villages to current seismic resistance without spending enormous amounts of money and essentially destroying the aesthetics/value of these old structures.
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I seems at first glance to me that it would be impossible to upgrade these old villages to current seismic resistance without spending enormous amounts of money and essentially destroying the aesthetics/value of these old structures.
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msquared48
Structural
Exactly right.
Steel frames do not integrat3e well with a stone age, stone based architecture.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
Steel frames do not integrat3e well with a stone age, stone based architecture.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
What would happen if one put, say, 4" 3/8"T steel angle on all four vertical corners and all four top edges tying them together. Would these structures keep their integrity enough to not generally kill all their residents or would they still spall inward and ultimately convert to piles anyway?
Keith Cress
kcress -
Keith Cress
kcress -
msquared48
Structural
No.
These walls more than likely failed from seismic forces normal to their large face (their weakest plane), not in line with the wall, and the angles you propose, or any edge members for that matter, would do little to no good to resist that scenario.
The entire wall would literally have to be stitched together via some structural means that would, in all likelihood, ruin any architecture of the area.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
These walls more than likely failed from seismic forces normal to their large face (their weakest plane), not in line with the wall, and the angles you propose, or any edge members for that matter, would do little to no good to resist that scenario.
The entire wall would literally have to be stitched together via some structural means that would, in all likelihood, ruin any architecture of the area.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
I see. Makes sense put that way. Thanks Mike.
Quite a problem really. Hard/esthetic/expensive/slow/disruptive/unpredictive need.
Keith Cress
kcress -
Quite a problem really. Hard/esthetic/expensive/slow/disruptive/unpredictive need.
Keith Cress
kcress -
That's why San Francisco wound up with a lot of buildings with bolted plates on their brick facades
When centuries old mortar is factored in, it's amazing that they hadn't had a problem until now.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529
When centuries old mortar is factored in, it's amazing that they hadn't had a problem until now.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529
IRStuff said:
I think they have.
Earthquakes in the 5.5 to 6.5 magnitude range are a relatively common occurrence along the Appenines. Assisi caught it in 1997 and again in 2009.
With death tolls in the low hundreds each time, a frequency of occurrence measured in years rather than decades, a history that goes back forever and no clear way to blame anybody for the quakes themselves, we're right in the middle of the territory where people resign themselves to the risk and just get on with life.
Outsiders may have a different view: I was taking photos from the top of a quite squinty tower in the the middle of Bologna a week before the quake happened and as a tourist from the UK the thought definitely crossed my mind that if the ground started shaking while we were up there, it was going to be an exciting ride.
A.
msquared48
Structural
As for no problem until now, how many times have they had to rebuild?
Also, remember that the energy released (vertical and horozontal movement) decreases as one moves from the epicenter.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
Also, remember that the energy released (vertical and horozontal movement) decreases as one moves from the epicenter.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
I think the distance from the epicentre is the bit that makes the difference here - they have relatively large numbers of relatively small, relatively shallow quakes, meaning that any particular building can go a long time before it sees a severe test.
Some of the churches I was admiring a couple of weeks back are bold structures and a long way off the straight and level, yet date back to the 12th Century (and are still there this week).
A
Some of the churches I was admiring a couple of weeks back are bold structures and a long way off the straight and level, yet date back to the 12th Century (and are still there this week).
A
msquared48
Structural
I heard that the buildings imploded implying that the roof strunture went up, displacing the walls to the inside of the structure. When the roof came back down, the walls collapsed to the inside of the structure.
Must have been a lot of vertical movement...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
Must have been a lot of vertical movement...
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
Perhaps the previous incidents got overwhelmed by other news, or didn't involve so many people and houses.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529
Or maybe memories are just short. (Not necessarily a bad thing - if they weren't, I imagine the human race would be paralysed by fear the whole time).
The 1997 quake was all over international news, partly because of this video, while the 2009 event was even more deadly than the latest one.
A.
The 1997 quake was all over international news, partly because of this video, while the 2009 event was even more deadly than the latest one.
A.
msquared48
Structural
Oh and Keith...
The through the wall rosettes you saw in Frisco were placed at the floor and roof diaphragm levels to keep the floor and roof joists from separating from the brick walls.
The walls still see forces normal to them and have to span vertically between the floors and roof in a seismic event.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
The through the wall rosettes you saw in Frisco were placed at the floor and roof diaphragm levels to keep the floor and roof joists from separating from the brick walls.
The walls still see forces normal to them and have to span vertically between the floors and roof in a seismic event.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Now that the dust has settled it's time to learn what really happened, and more importantly, WHY...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
- Thread starter
- #17
I seem to recall that in 2009 the authorities there were out to prosecute certain scientists who failed to predict the quake.
The link to the article above seems to suggest prosecution of either engineers, builders, or the mafia that perhaps affected the quality.
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The link to the article above seems to suggest prosecution of either engineers, builders, or the mafia that perhaps affected the quality.
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376
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