Electromobility in use?

[KevinMuel]

Hi to everyone,

I'm a teacher and I teach physics at a state high school. We're currently dealing with electromobility. My students discovered the website Electromobility by Siemens USA. Does anyone know which car manufactures actually use Siemens technologies? I've read that they partnered up with Volvo in Europe but what about the USA? Thanks

 

[MikeHalloran]

Since Siemens is the Euro equivalent of GE, it's likely that all cars have _some_ Siemens technology.

I had not heard that 'electromobility' buzzword before.

The Siemens site you referenced makes an astonishing assertion, that may deserve further discussion: That, thanks to 'smart grid' technology, a utility can use your parked electric car to store up energy for future use _by_the_utility. I.e., like pumped storage, but using the consumer's hyperexpensive EV battery instead of the utility's water reservoir or salt cavern.

So, when you unplug your EV to start the daily commute, you may or may not actually have a fully charged battery, and even if is charged, the utility may have consumed some of its finite store of charge/discharge cycles without your knowledge or overt permission.

Am I reading that right?


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[dgallup]

I've heard that concept floated as part of the "smart grid". I'm sure that would make a lot of unhappy commuters who find out they don't have enough charge to make it home.

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[IRstuff]

That shouldn't be the case, in a properly configured and functioning system. Presumably, the infrastructure can learn what the typical start and stop times are for each car and act accordingly. Also, one might expect that not all of a single car's charge is sucked out. And if there is indeed "fast" charging, it may only incur 15 minutes of delay if the driver decides to retrieve his car off-schedule.

TTFN
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[TomDOT]

It is an idea which has been floated, and typically should allow the car owner to configure the settings for electricity charging and discharging from their battery storage. For example, maybe I know I only need a quarter of the battery charge for my commute.

I top off overnight at $0.05/kWh.

I drive to work, arriving at 75% charged.

I plug in and am recharged for a few hours at $0.05-$0.10 due to my settings, getting up to 95% full.

At the peak demand, I allow drawdown to 40% of the total charge, selling the electricity when peak prices are a minimum of $1.00/kWh.

I drive home, arrive with 15% of the charge remaining, plug in overnight and recharge at $0.05/kWh.

By allowing my car to be used at peak demand, I buy electricity at $0.05-.10 and sell at $1.00 or more. Obviously there are some losses, but it should still be a net benefit to the owner.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Do you think a utility is going to pay that much of a premium for peak energy?
How much of a premium do they pay now for home-generated power?
Do you think they're even going to _tell_ you they're using up your battery?


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[TomDOT]

Mike - I was a bit high on my estimate. Wholesale power peaked at around $0.60/kWh last summer here.

 

[dgallup]

Generally if you have a solar electric system hooked to the grid you consume at retail and sell back at wholesale except in states with laws requiring the utility to pay retail for power you put on the grid. One of the reasons holding back home solar electric installations. I don't know of any area that distinguishes between time of day.

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[TomDOT]

Time-of-day pricing doesn't yet have much penetration in residential markets. It has made more progress in industrial and agriculture, where individual users use a lot more. Time-of-day pricing is the absolute method for the wholesale energy markets.

 

[pontiacjack]

Sounds to me like an extension of Huxley's "Brave New World". The "infrastructure" monitoring my "typical" driving habits. I'm sort of glad I probably won't live (or drive) long enough to enjoy it.

 

[GregLocock]

One way of looking at it for Volt owners is they are helping to power the elcetric grid using their rather expensive engines and fuel. And of course using the life of their battery up while doing so. Absolutely hilarious.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[JayMaechtlen]

I think time-of-day pricing is available here in Socal (So Cal Edison) and preferred/promoted for solar cell installations.
Since regular hybrids don't have that much storage anyway, you're only talking about the miniscule number of full electrics and plug in hybrids out there.
Can't be enough net power there to make any difference.
If there were a huge number of electrics plugged in, and battery life weren't an issue, it might be worthwhile.


Jay Maechtlen

http://www.laserpubs.com/techcomm

 

[RossABQ]

Not to mentionn by the time all the conversions are factored in, you have a horrible "efficiency". Maybe 30% distribution losses to the charging port at the home, and at least that drawing out of the car battery and converting to AC. Sure hope all those cars are synched to the grid frequency... The only scenario I can think of that makes any sense is to use the car batteries to shave the peak on its own residence -- when the car is least likely to be home.

 

[dgallup]

If nobodies home why would the house be using peak power?

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[RossABQ]

If nobodies home why would the house be using peak power?

It may not be the peak for the house, but it may be for the system, and reducing the houses' draw may let the utility meet demands in offices, etc.

 

[140Airpower]

The idea that a utility could count your EV battery as part of its storage is hilarious, right? Right? It IS a joke, right?
Actually, this is interesting, but I think the idea is ½ baked. It sounds plausible, but would require some “adjudication”. One cost factor is indeed the monetary value of using up charge/discharge cycles. Another is the possibility that the consumer needs to use the full charge of his battery while the utility has partially discharged it. Another is the REQUIREMENT that the EV charging system allows for the discharging of the battery through the electric plug. And the consumer has the option of unplugging once he has a full charge. This can be accomplished automatically either by the EV’s system itself or with an auxiliary switch.
The ideas of distributed storage and distributed generation are technologies in the making. I think there are many questions that may need (more) legislation to answer. Compensation rates are a big issue.

I wouldn’t worry about this idea. More threatening is their plans to plug US all into the Matrix and charge and discharge us as needed. You did hear about that didn’t you?

 

[140Airpower]

Kevin, what does "Electromobility" mean to you? Siemens seems to be using it as a PR term similar to calling an electric car an "Electromobile" and if that is all there is to it it's a perversion of a perfectly good scientific term as used in molecular biology or physics.

BTW, their web site echos the often used false claim that EVs are not associated with CO2 emissions like internal combustion engined cars are, as if electricity can be generated without environmental impact. The truth is that only if electric power is generated by nuclear, hydro, wind, tides or solar is that true. And then, there could be other, worse, environmental impacts. If your power comes from a coal fired plant, then your EV could be responsible for more CO2 emissions than a small gasoline engined car.