Electronic Data Transfer Agreement 1

[SteelPE]

Recently I have been asked to sign an Electronic Data Transfer Agreement in order to receive CAD drawings from an architect. This is the second time I have been asked to sign such an agreement. In short, the agreement says that the drawings are for reference only an the architect has no responsibility if the information contained with the drawings is correct. Huh????? how am I suppose to design a building if your drawings are for reference only.

What do others do in this instance? Seems like I am forced to sign their agreement or not get any help from their CAD files.

 

[JLNJ]

It sounds like the agreement we ask contruction contractors to sign when they want our drawings for their use. (Sometimes we even make them pay.)

Perhaps it indicates that the architect looks at you as just another contractor rather than a fellow professional. Ugh.

Maybe you need to have a talk with their top brass.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Maybe even have a talk with your insurance company.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

 

[TLHS]

We have something like this, but it's phrased such that the CAD itself is not guaranteed to be correct. Anything that's dimensioned or otherwise notated in paperspace is right, anything else is just for your information and you'll need to decide if you're comfortable with it. Basically, the actual issued drawing is the master document. If you're doing something important verify it off of that.

This is simply because the final drawing gets checked. The engineer or architect or other responsible profession is only checking the actual physical drawing, not the electronic CAD file. Even a drafting check isn't going to check all the possible things that could be subtly drafted wrong.

If something's called up as a W310 but scaled in a detail somewhere as a W250 I want something to point at if someone decides to blindly grab that detail out of a CAD drawing and use it as the basis for their HVAC detailing. I also don't want people measuring my conceptual connection details and things like that.

It's probably different if you're doing stuff with BIM or combined models where the model is the real deliverable.

 

[SteelPE]

In this particular instance the Arch is using a BIM model. We have had a hard time getting him to get us the correct information as we are not using BIM to draw our portion of the project. In one instance it took us 2 days,12 emails and two phone calls to get the architect to cut a section through a shelf that he wanted poured in the foundation. Once we got the section I figured out what he wanted in about 5 seconds, however the limits of the shelf took another day and 5 more emails and 2 more phone conversations. Oh, and the shelf is detailed wrong on his drawings after all of this.

My point is, if I can't find it on your drawings how am I suppose to detail the structure properly on my drawings which everyone is going to use to build off of.... and how is the contractor suppose to build this in the field. So in the end I suppose to sign this paper relieving the architect from the responsibility of giving up incorrect drawings? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[MikeHalloran]

This is just one of the apparently unsolved problems with BIM.

The architects's agreement is, er, architected, for the 'old' situation, where the signed and sealed paper print governs, whereas, in theory, with BIM, the model governs.

Perhaps your lawyer needs to be talking to the architect's lawyer.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[SteelPE]

BIM or 2d cad.... If the drawings are wrong they are wrong either way. I suppose I may just not sign and let the architect answer all of my questions until he gets sick of me asking and gives me his drawings.

 

[kipfoot]

I haven't seen this from an architect. My first reaction, like yours, would be, "okay, give me the drawings with everything dimensioned and then I'll start work." Usually, I'm laying out foundations on CAD backgrounds that haven't been dimensioned, so this would be a pleasant change.

 

[CELinOttawa]

The real problem with situations like this is if the Architect is your client. Otherwise it is as per all others' comments: Simply demand to be treated like a collegial professional, or ask for the fully dimensioned drawings from which to start work. Make sure the inevitable and significant delays are documented in writing, e-mail as a convenient minimum.

 

[IRstuff]

Huh, that's kind of funny, because to be ISO compliant, we generally refer to the electronic data as being the correct one, while paper could be easily outdated in mere seconds.

I would guess that the architect simply doesn't know how to do the BIM data correctly.

TTFN
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[ztengguy]

Just wait for drawings from them then, make it clear that its their fault your being delayed.

 

[SteelPE]

I can't really wait for the drawings from them as we have been working on the project for over a month and it is due on Friday. We have been asking for this information for over a month and the arch has refused to give us any information other than PDF drawings of specific areas of concern. For this project I have only seen two elevations of the building and not all four. They refuse to give us topography data to set our foundation depths opting for telling us what to do on a PDF drawing. In this instance I look like a jerk because I am refusing to sign and am being singled out as the bad guy by the owner. The architect being 2000 miles away from the project is only amplifying the problems.

I'm not concerned about repeat work with the owner as I am beginning to see how hard they are to work with.

 

[CELinOttawa]

You have legitimate reasons not to sign. Delays are not your fault in such a circumstance, but that won't stop an owner from suing you.

I don't envy your situation, as you're basically out of time and needed to put everyone on notice weeks ago...

 

[SteelPE]

I was fine until the architect and owner made major changes to the building yesterday.

I guess I am just a whiner. I am now being told that if I don't sign the agreement and our drawings don't match the arch drawings that I will be at fault.

 

[ztengguy]

Well, the other option is to sign it, design the best you can, and then send the drawings out "NOT FOR CONSTRUCTION" and cloud everything that you are concerened with and put "ARCH TO VERIFY". If your not worried about repeat work, cover your ass. There might not be an I in team, but there sorta is a me.

I see the same thing. I had a guy from my own company ask 'why I need a full set of drawings, you have what is related to the bridge, so who cares"

Turns out the grading plan, profile drawings, etc are important. Who knew, certainly not the sales guy.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Yeah, wow, that's a crummy situation the architect has put you in. Ztengguy seems to have the best suggestion in my limited opinion. Wouldn't hurt to make sure your complaints are documented as others mentioned and just cover yourself as much as you can.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

 

[SteelPE]

Funny thing is that I share all of my drawings with them.

 

[ztengguy]

We share our drawings too. If you cant stand behind your product, dont produce. If someone takes your drawing and modifies it, prints it out, and tries to pull a fast one, We have records of the drawings we send out for approval, construction, etc. Its on them then.

If someone wants to use my details, GREAT! that means its a good detail!

 

[steellion]

We typically have these agreements with contractors and owners that want our electronic files, but not fellow design team members.

 

[SteelPE]

Maybe because they were not responsible for retaining my services they think that I am a contractor and not a team member.