I know it's common enough, but what do you all think of employees stamping/sealing drawings? It bothers me, especially in construcion companies where cutting corners puts money directly in the owner's pocket. You got to do what's right if you're the EOR, but you got follow orders if you want to keep your job.
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Employees stamping drawings 2
- Thread starter GNight
- Start date
If following orders doesn't correspond to doing what's right, it's time to look for a new job.
I would say probably the majority of drawings sealed are sealed by employees of one kind or another. That's not a problem in itself. You have the same issues if an owner does its own engineering, but that's pretty common, too. You have the same types of concerns with a consultant- they're still getting paid by somebody.
I would say probably the majority of drawings sealed are sealed by employees of one kind or another. That's not a problem in itself. You have the same issues if an owner does its own engineering, but that's pretty common, too. You have the same types of concerns with a consultant- they're still getting paid by somebody.
- Thread starter
- #4
Talking about licensed engineers who stamp their own stuff, but aren't owners or partners. Like I said, I know it's common. In engineering, there's always interpretation, not as much a right and a wrong way but about five different ways you can look at the problem. Say you're conservative, but your boss wants you to slim down the beam size. Well, okay, stamp it or look for a new job? The EOR is personally liable for the work, but an employee's got no control of the insurance, the contracts, the clients or the projects. The engineer stamping should have the final say, but supervising is all about telling somebody else what to do. I think the boss should stamp the employee's work.
civilperson
Structural
Engineers are expected to apply their best judgement to design decisions. That is part of the implied contract between Professional Engineers and the Owner/supervisors. The selection of a beam size can be rigorous or approximate. The amount of effort to save 20% weight of steel could easily cost more in engineering time than the savings in material cost with the added proviso that future added loads are not easily accomodated. No supervisor in my experience will sacrifice the hour budget for a small material savings for the client. I think this is a hypothetical problem that is rarely encountered in engineering firms. If truly encountered, separation is necessary from both sides point of view.
- Thread starter
- #6
I've worked for engineering firms and for contractors and this is not a hypothetical question. Been asked more than once by other engineers if I thought they should take that "promotion" into stamping, a tough one because it means more money. Even quit over being bullied into stamping something I honestly regretted. It's the biggest, most common ethical problem I've got.
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2
- #7
"Talking about licensed engineers who stamp their own stuff, but aren't owners or partners. Like I said, I know it's common."
Why on earth shouldn't it be common?? If you did the work, you stamp it. You only need someone else stamping your work if you're not licensed yourself--and then the person doing the stamping needs to have had direct supervision of the process, not simply be your boss. And if your boss needs to be looking over your shoulder for the whole design process as if you were an EIT instead of a P.E. just so they can seal it later, why should they bother hiring a P.E.? A P.E. license isn't about being self-employed, it's about responsibility for and applying engineering prinicples.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
Why on earth shouldn't it be common?? If you did the work, you stamp it. You only need someone else stamping your work if you're not licensed yourself--and then the person doing the stamping needs to have had direct supervision of the process, not simply be your boss. And if your boss needs to be looking over your shoulder for the whole design process as if you were an EIT instead of a P.E. just so they can seal it later, why should they bother hiring a P.E.? A P.E. license isn't about being self-employed, it's about responsibility for and applying engineering prinicples.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
- Thread starter
- #8
One way of looking at it is "If you did the work, you stamp it". Clear about that. The other way, the thing I'm trying to bring up here is: If you picked the job, stand to make the profit, wrote the contract, decided on the insurance policy to cover errors, why can't you take responsiblity for it, too?
The point of hiring licenced professionals that don't stamp is that they do the work of licenced professionals, not the work of EITs. Everything ought to be checked, anyway, and the system where the stamper checks and makes final judgement calls insures quality control.
I don't think it's an ethical issue in itself, but it leads to ethical conflicts. If you go in eyes open, knowing you might have to quit rather than stamp something iffy, knowing you won't have the power to turn down a client you think is likely to sue, well fine. But how many freshly licensed engineers think about that when they look for a job?
The point of hiring licenced professionals that don't stamp is that they do the work of licenced professionals, not the work of EITs. Everything ought to be checked, anyway, and the system where the stamper checks and makes final judgement calls insures quality control.
I don't think it's an ethical issue in itself, but it leads to ethical conflicts. If you go in eyes open, knowing you might have to quit rather than stamp something iffy, knowing you won't have the power to turn down a client you think is likely to sue, well fine. But how many freshly licensed engineers think about that when they look for a job?
"If you picked the job, stand to make the profit, wrote the contract, decided on the insurance policy to cover errors, why can't you take responsiblity for it, too?"
Hmm, maybe because you're not a licensed engineer in that particular field, and that's why you hire engineers to be your employees? Or maybe you have 20 engineers working for you and there's just no way you personally could give all those jobs the review you'd need to give them to be able to legally AND ETHICALLY stamp them?
The notion that someone should be checking someone else's work simply because of their relative positions in a management hierarchy just doesn't make sense. It might give the illusion of making sense when one considers a very small private business with a P.E. owner and a handful of P.E. employees, but quickly turns ridiculous when you start to consider larger businesses and corporations.
Quality control is a separate issue, and a good quality control system does NOT necessarily mean the checker/checkee relationship is identical to, or even in the same direction as, the manager/employee relationship.
Yes, new engineers should be aware that they might have an unethical or just plain ignorant boss who might ask them to do the wrong thing, and they might lose their job to keep their ethics (and possibly their license). Sad but true. That's no reason to start suggesting that only those who have ownership in the company should be sealing drawings!
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
Hmm, maybe because you're not a licensed engineer in that particular field, and that's why you hire engineers to be your employees? Or maybe you have 20 engineers working for you and there's just no way you personally could give all those jobs the review you'd need to give them to be able to legally AND ETHICALLY stamp them?
The notion that someone should be checking someone else's work simply because of their relative positions in a management hierarchy just doesn't make sense. It might give the illusion of making sense when one considers a very small private business with a P.E. owner and a handful of P.E. employees, but quickly turns ridiculous when you start to consider larger businesses and corporations.
Quality control is a separate issue, and a good quality control system does NOT necessarily mean the checker/checkee relationship is identical to, or even in the same direction as, the manager/employee relationship.
Yes, new engineers should be aware that they might have an unethical or just plain ignorant boss who might ask them to do the wrong thing, and they might lose their job to keep their ethics (and possibly their license). Sad but true. That's no reason to start suggesting that only those who have ownership in the company should be sealing drawings!
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376
The whole point of having employees is to have THEM do the work. At some point in time, the work gets massive enough that you have to hire additional PEs, who are then responsible for their individual subprojects. That's the nature of the business.
When management interferes, then there may, or may not, be something to deal with. What you're indicating is appears to be a difference of opinion, as opposed to a outright ethics breach. Unless there is quantifiable and documenttary evidence that your manageer's direction is unsafe, there is no ethical breach, per se.
Sometimes, this can occur because the bidder and the executor are different people, with different assumptions.
Otherwise, this is simply a problem you'll need to deal with. You can be ultraconservative, hence, unltraexpensive, and unemployed, or, you can be reasonably conservative, and gainfully employed.
But, unless you have specific proof of insufficient design, based on industry standards, then you're simply SOL.
TTFN
When management interferes, then there may, or may not, be something to deal with. What you're indicating is appears to be a difference of opinion, as opposed to a outright ethics breach. Unless there is quantifiable and documenttary evidence that your manageer's direction is unsafe, there is no ethical breach, per se.
Sometimes, this can occur because the bidder and the executor are different people, with different assumptions.
Otherwise, this is simply a problem you'll need to deal with. You can be ultraconservative, hence, unltraexpensive, and unemployed, or, you can be reasonably conservative, and gainfully employed.
But, unless you have specific proof of insufficient design, based on industry standards, then you're simply SOL.
TTFN
- Thread starter
- #12
At least the way I understand it, as a licensed engineer working for a corporation, if you design and seal a project, and something goes wrong, your firm is liable for the damages. I think technically, the damaged parties cannot win a suit against you directly as they do not have any sort of conctract with you as an individual. That is the whole point of "corporations"....at least in the US. They can certainly sue you, but they won't necessarily prevail.
I know this has been tested many times in history. Take Jack Gilliam for instance. I believe he lost his firm, his license, etc. after the Hyatt Regency collapse in Kansas City in the 70's, but the engineers under him were not affected other than loosing their jobs when the firm shut down.
I freely admit here that I'm not an attorney.
I know this has been tested many times in history. Take Jack Gilliam for instance. I believe he lost his firm, his license, etc. after the Hyatt Regency collapse in Kansas City in the 70's, but the engineers under him were not affected other than loosing their jobs when the firm shut down.
I freely admit here that I'm not an attorney.
electricpete
Electrical
Criminal liability? Yes. Remember Enron and that CPA named Duncan? I'm sure he wasn't a party to any contract, but he certfied some books (like stamping a drawing), and now he's in jail.
Civil liability? Yes. Whatever lawyers can convince a jury about liability is what matters in civil cases. Fortunately, the target is usually someone with deep pockets.
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Civil liability? Yes. Whatever lawyers can convince a jury about liability is what matters in civil cases. Fortunately, the target is usually someone with deep pockets.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
In some states, the engineer of record can be held jointly and severally liable for his work. That means that he has personal liability beyond that of the company for which he works (Florida has this miserable law!)
It is common for engineers in larger companies to sign/seal their work and, with appropriate review, that of subordinates. Your description sounds like a disconnect in the senior review process.
The way it "should" work is that if you do the work and you are a PE, you should have an internal QA program that would then send that work through a review process. That review process should cause you to "defend" your work. The final decision rests in an agreement between you and the reviewer...if you don't agree, then you must decide whether it is an untenable situation for you and you must leave....the reviewer has already been given the responsibility of protecting the liability of the company, so don't expect him to compromise it. If he is asking you to "fine tune" a design rather than being overly conservative, then get him to explain to you why it's valid and between you, hash it out. You must reach an understanding. To simply change something just because someone else says to do so is absurd.
It is common for engineers in larger companies to sign/seal their work and, with appropriate review, that of subordinates. Your description sounds like a disconnect in the senior review process.
The way it "should" work is that if you do the work and you are a PE, you should have an internal QA program that would then send that work through a review process. That review process should cause you to "defend" your work. The final decision rests in an agreement between you and the reviewer...if you don't agree, then you must decide whether it is an untenable situation for you and you must leave....the reviewer has already been given the responsibility of protecting the liability of the company, so don't expect him to compromise it. If he is asking you to "fine tune" a design rather than being overly conservative, then get him to explain to you why it's valid and between you, hash it out. You must reach an understanding. To simply change something just because someone else says to do so is absurd.
woodengineer
Structural
In most consulting firms (at least in the mid-atlantic area) the principals are the only engineers that seal drawings. I have worked for consulting firms, and have owned my own firm in the past. Recently I joined a truss manufacturer and design metal-plate connected wood trusses as well as designs for repairs. I seal all my own work. Prior to doing that I had the company hold me harmless for errors and ommissions. No company will indemnfy you from gross neglience or incompetance. I am one of three PEs and we review eachothers work (especially with complex designs or repairs.) One of the reasons I joined this company was to avoid paying outrageous liability insurace premiums.
woodengineer
woodengineer
Some time back, when I had checked into getting licensed in Florida, it seems like they had rather odd rules about corporate licensing. In particular, they required FL PE's to own the corporation before it could be licensed, which rules out a non-engineering company having a PE on staff with FL seal. An odd way of thinking that comes from the "everyone is a consultant" mentality.
I have worked for a construction company. I stamp my own work. I don't stamp what I don't like. Have said no, every one got mad, everyone got over it. Be nice, Be firm. Not that many PE's out there that anybody is going to get fired for not stamping something thy do not like. If you do, then you probably did not need to work there anyway.
If you work as an empolyee, you are generally shielded from fincial liability except for malice or gross negligence. If you are working as a subcontractor, you may not be shielded.
If you work as an empolyee, you are generally shielded from fincial liability except for malice or gross negligence. If you are working as a subcontractor, you may not be shielded.
woodengineer,
I am a P.E. working for a truss manufacturing company. I will soon be sealing shop drawings. I have gone through several meetings with our insurance company, in addition to having my own attorney review the policy, to ensure that I am covered. Are there any other issues that you think I should be concerned with, or need to address? Thanks in advance.
I am a P.E. working for a truss manufacturing company. I will soon be sealing shop drawings. I have gone through several meetings with our insurance company, in addition to having my own attorney review the policy, to ensure that I am covered. Are there any other issues that you think I should be concerned with, or need to address? Thanks in advance.
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