Engineer of Record 1

[mrMikee]

I don't understand the diffences between what a PE does and other terms like Engineer of Record, Structural Engineer, and Structural Engineer of Record. I have worked many years for a company that manufactures bins and support structures and have not had the need to stamp drawings much. A search of the internet didn't help.

More specifically, when you stamp drawings does that mean your are responsible for everything form that point on, from shop drawings, shop fabrication, through to construction and final inspection? What if you stamp only calculations. Is it up the the engineer to define the scope of what their 'stamping' covers?

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks,
-Mike

 

[whyun]

Engineer of record is the individual responsible for the portion of the work he/she signs. Any licensed PE, or staff engineers who contribute to producing the documents must do so under the responsible charge of the engineer of record.

This does not mean that EOR is responsible for everything in the shop drawings, shop fabrication, inspection, etc. Engineer of record follows general standard of care in reviewing the shop drawings to meet general design intent, perform structural observation at certain stages of the project, etc.

 

[JStephen]

Whether drawings should be stamped is normally regulated by the state engineering rules in the state where the project is located (not by whether the customer requires them). In many cases, you will find owners who do not require a PE seal on work submitted to them, even though state law does. If the state laws require such a seal, seal it anyway.


In my work, most jobs consist of plans and specifications prepared by a consulting engineer, with detail design and shop drawings done by the fabricator/erector. Those shop drawings are normally sealed.


Hopefully, the consultant takes care of some other critical aspects of design, such as determining what building codes are applicable to the structure, whether it meets fire codes, etc. If your scope of work is similar to mine, be very wary of jobs that don't involve that consultant, as that does effectively leave you as THE engineer on the job, requires you to determine the applicable building codes, fire codes, may make you responsible for functional design when you only anticipated responsibility for structural design, etc.


It is always a good idea to show on your drawings the extent of your design work, and what design work is to be done by others.

 

[mrMikee]

whyun,

Thanks for your response.

So when any PE stamps and signs a drawing he then is the Engineer-of-Record? I understand the responsibility of signing drawings and the idea of responsible charge, but I am trying to figure out what else this might mean either by law or customary practice as related to what I do.

For example, when I designed a bin and associated support structure, I would also make a foundation loads drawing. These were layout and loads only drawings, the actual foundation design was to be done by others. Structures were manufactured by my employer and would ship to locations all over the country (US). I would be sometimes asked to stamp the foundation drawing, and I would do so based on codes and specifications as we understood them and as specified on the drawing. I have found it interesting over the years how few times I have been asked by the customer to submit stamped calculations or drawings on our projects.

The industry that I work in has been very cavalier about the issues of building codes and specifications, and I want get a better idea of what the general standard of care is. I would like to do what is required or assumed, or at least specify more precisely my scope of work is, and what it is not.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[whyun]

As an employee of the bin manufacturer, it would be prudent to include in your general notes of the drawing all of the design criteria and limitations. When you put your stamp, you will be liable up to that point only. On the drawings you may indicate something to the effect of "Foundation by others". Others in this case refer to engineer of record for the project hired by the owner.

If there is no engineer of record for the project, you may request the owner the geotechnical report and any other documentation you need to produce the foundation design. When you perform this design and sign for it, you become the engineer of record.

For the manufacturer, this is usually outside the normal scope of work. Owner shall compensate you for the work you provide and the liabilities.

 

[JStephen]

If you are designing a manufactured item, generally a PE seal isn't required, and if it is, it would be from the state where the product is manufactured. If you are building something in another state, or designing something to be built in another state (like a foundation),the PE seal would generally need to be from that other state, not from your home state.

Some issues you could get into:
-Proper building code, if any- could be IBC or outdated versions of UBC or other codes, and can vary city-by-city.
-Height limitations- imposed in some areas.
-FAA clearance lamps- required in some places, depending on height of the structur.
-Proper bin configuration to make product flow
-Design of ladders and platforms to meet OSHA or state OSHA's or MSHA requirements (which all vary some).

Each of these items could be specified by the customer or could be by you. If customer isn't a PE, doesn't hire a PE, and you are a PE, and seal the drawings, it's your design.

Suppose customer asks you to furnish a dynamite silo, sketches it out on a napkin. You detail it per the sketch, put your seal on it, and build it. It blows up and takes out half the town. Who is held responsible?

 

[mrMikee]

whyun,

Your suggestion about notes on a foundation drawing is in fact what we did. Our notes talked about loads imposed by our structures on the foundations and the importance of soils testing and having the foundation designed by an experienced engineer. This was done not only to specifiy the scope of what we did, but also to stress to the customer who is often unaware of the the need of more engineering.

Now that I am in business for myself I want to know more about the requirements and the implications of exchanging drawings and when necessary providing PE sealed drawings.

Thanks,
-Mike

 

[Ron]

mrMikee...you are practicing in an area generally known as "delegated engineering". In this instance, you are given certain parameters, perhaps by the structural engineer of record or the architect, in order to design your portion of the project. You do not have "Engineer of Record" responsibility for the project, but you do have responsibility for the delegated engineering work. This is commonly done where the Structural Engineer of Record provides loads and the Engineer for the steel fabricator actually designs the connections. The Structural Engineer of Record is responsible to review the delegate Engineer's design for compliance/conformance with his intent.

 

[whyun]

JStephen is right about not needing a PE stamp. An engineer of record and local building official may request calculations/stamp on the design of the bin. EOR will review the design and likely will put a shop-drawing stamp or a submittal review stamp stating reviewed for "load to the structure only" or similar.

To an EOR, the bin will be a "black-box". The one stamping the black-box is responsible for the black-box alone with the stated limitations.

When you say you are in business for yourself, are you in fact the manufacturer?

 

[mrMikee]

whyun,

I have gone into business as a consulting engineer and am focusing on the design of elevated bins and support structures, an area I worked in for ten years. And this is the reason why I need to fully understand PE and EOR responsibilities. I am concerned about the difference between the duties of a captive design engineer and a consulting engineer.

As JStephen points out the bin itself might be considered a manufactured product, and I have never been asked to submit calcs for one. Calculations for the bin itself would not involve anything in the codes anyways. This might be an area of the "black-box" idea.

Thanks for the help.

Regards,
-Mike

 

[mrMikee]

JStephen,

You are right about the building code problems. Knowing the adopted versions of codes and modifications at the state, county, and city levels is difficult if even possible. Having a single model code should have made things a little better, but that's another discussion.

Many times the customer and the sales department would want a stamped general arrangement drawing that not only showed the bin and structure, but also power, controls, conveyors, guarding, scales, ladders, handrails, dust collection, and all kinds of moving, rotating, and vibrating equipment. As a structural engineer I would supply a drawing something like the GA but showing the structure, loads, member sizes, and appropriate notes. In other words my "delegated engineering".

This is starting to make sense.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards,
-Mike