Engineering for out of state projects

[mrMikee]

I work for a concrete plant manufacturer and design agg bins, cement silos, and related support structures that could be located anywhere in the US. Occasionally we are asked for stamped drawings in which case we go to an engineer registered in the appropriate state and have them review our drawings and produce a set of calcs.

Sometimes I am asked by the customer to stamp drawings even though I am not registered in their state. I rarely do this because I seldom have adequate involvement in the complete design and drawing process to meet the "direct control and supervision" requirement. Often this request comes in at the end of the project when the work is almost done.

My question is this: If I stamp drawings or calculations for something I've designed per the IBC and/or other requirements which I have clearly stated, even though I don't necessarily know where it will be erected, would this be considered practicing engineering in another state without a license?

As an aside, it is interesting to me how few times stamped calcs and drawings are asked for. I wonder how building permits are obtained and who ends up being the EOR.

Any comments?

Thanks,
-Mike

 

[JAE]

Mike,

First off, for many states, agricultural buildings don't require engineering sealed drawings. So your question would be contingent upon which state the structure is ultimately built.

Second, today's structures are much more dependent upon the site on which they are built than in past years. The seismic load is extremely variable today, with a multitude of Ss and S1 values across the US, and also dependent upon the site class definition.

Foundation design must be based on soil parameters that can vary from site to site. However, allowable bearing pressures can be assumed at conservative values for many cases.

Wind design is more uniform today with a large part of the US falling under 90 mph wind. But you don't always know what your exposure is.

Having said all this, you can see that any design you do back in your office has a high chance of not meeting the local site conditions that would define its proper loads.

Your original question - if you stamp some sort of prototype design and clearly state the loading criteria, IF a seal is required, the local jurisdiction should be competent enough to see that a) you aren't licensed in their state and b) the required loads don't match local conditions....and they should reject it.

But many local building departments don't always stick to the rules and as I said, aggie buildings aren't always even IN a jurisdiction.

 

[jike]

I think that the "agg bin" that he is refering to is for aggregate.

Are these structures exempt from the building codes since they are equipment and are unoccupied?

 

[mrMikee]

I should have been more clear, "Agg" is for aggregate.

An aggregate bin will store sand and gravel, sometimes of several types. I've worked on bins up to capacities of 400 tons.

Some people do argue that these structures are exempt from building codes (mostly the sales department) and while I do understand the reasoning for the "industry exemption" in most codes, clearly these structures will be subject to wind and seismic loads and in my opinion should be designed for them. And using a code such as the IBC would be appropriate.

Concerning stamping drawings, I think I've seen codes that allowed the building official to accept an out of state engineers certification, but I've never seen it done. What incentive is there to take the risk I suppose.

Thanks for the response.

-Mike

 

[JStephen]

You may have a lot of cases where a consultant draws up general plans and specs that are stamped, and the building permit comes from them, not the detail drawings.

In general, if you design a structure in a state, you are practicing engineering in that state, regardless of which state's seal you stamp it with. This is almost universal practice, but very few state PE rules actually spell it out anywhere. But you will see it in the enforcements.

Some states allow an engineer to review work done by out-of-state engineers or non-registrants and stamp it. A lot of states prohibit this. You'd need to check the state rules for that state to see which it is. Don't assume that the in-state PE's know this, as it's not always the case.

A lot of areas don't require any building permits.

Generally, a manufactured product does not need a PE seal, although that is not always a logical exemption. Design an outhouse, and it needs a PE seal. Design a porta-potty and it doesn't. Go figure.

 

[EddyC]

If the drawings of the "product" have no site identification or address on them, then you could conceivably argue that you are not doing "out of state" engineering. But if it could be determined that you knew where the "product" was being installed, you could have a problem. I've heard of your past struggles with this employer. Hopefully you'll make them understand the seriousness of these issues. They seem to have much to learn from you. Good Luck.

 

[JAE]

Sorry - agg - agricultural - aggregates....my bad.

 

[aggman]

Mike,
Being in a similar situation as you with what we design/ build I think what you are doing is practicing out of state. If you are designing a standard and the company you are developing the standard for requires a sealed design then you have to set up parameters with which you are going to design for. (Site class D, 2500 psf bearing, ground acceleration, 90 mph wind, exposure C, etc.) As far as stamping then you can provide sealed drawings for the states/ state which you are licensed in. I have often been asked to just seal the drawings. The owner generally doesn't know or care if you are licensed in his state. He just wants sealed drawings. We have always used consultants that have been licensed in the states we are doing work in. We are also lucky enough to have one that is licensed in 33 states and one that is licensed in 47 states so it's not much of a problem. In my opinion placing a Indiana seal on a design going to Alabama is just useless and means nothing other than at least the product was engineered. Beacause of this I am in the process of obtaining licenses in (12) states that we normally do business in and I am planning to take the SE2 in April so I can get licensed in Illinois. My suggestion would be that if the problem is reaccuring have the company requiring it pay the fees for you to get licensed in other states. Or they can at least pay for you to obtain an NCEES record and maintain it so that if the design requires a seal you could obtain the license in a reasonable amount of time. Standards that are sealed are just that "STANDARDS". They have their limits.

My experience has been that when an owner just wants a sealed design even if you do not have a license in that state it generally is due to the fact that the owner has been burned. They are asking for a sealed design so that they feel confident they are getting an "engineered" product. It is simply amazing how many companies in the aggregate industry consider their "designers" as engineers. Some of the designs I have inspected are just flat scary!

 

[mrMikee]

Hi aggman,

I think you are right when you said that the owner’s request for a PE stamp is to have some confidence they are getting an engineered product. Many times the owner will ask for certified drawings and the sales department interprets this as a request for a PE stamp. He may simply be asking for drawings marked as final and ready for construction. In other words "certified."

While sealing a drawing for something going to another state is clearly practicing engineering in that state, a manufactured product gets into the gray area. A cement silo and agg bin will be subject to wind and seismic loads and in my opinion should be designed for them even if a PE may not required.

Concerning the question in my original post, and I understand why the owner is asking, I will continue to not seal out of state drawings. If an owner is asking then a sale has been made and a location is known. The silo/bin and structure are no longer a standard design.

Concerning the qualification of "designers," the management of the company I work for now has no interest in doing the structural engineering related to this product line. Their strategy is to save engineering time by overdesigning. This might be possible with an experienced staff that could rough out a design that if anything was stronger than it needed to be. I've done this myself when the situation required it. But it's difficult if not impossible to do with inexperienced people. Currently our engineering department consists of (besides me) 3 Solidworks designers with no experience at all with a structural product. One of the Solidworks guys (my boss) is the manager of the department. His last job was at a door company. Much of my work recently has been designing reinforcement or otherwise fixing problems in the field due to inadequate design, so the overdesigning approach isn't working out.

Thanks for the comments.

-Mike

 

[JAE]

If a person doesn't know what they are doing (structurally), how do they even know that a structure is over designed in the first place?

 

[mrMikee]

JAE,

That makes sense to me.

And it's apparrent when looking at what the techs draw up that there's no understanding of connection requirements or structural stability.

-Mike