Engineering License Quesions Accross Boundries

[Slugger926]

How can companies have engineers do work accross state or international boundries when those engineers are not licensed where the company or work is needed?

Examples: A) A non-licensed engineer sitting in Texas doing projects that will be implemented in New York.

B) An engineer not licensed in Arkansas doing work for a company in Arkansas while living in South Africa. The project will be constructed in Arkansas.

C) A non licensed engineer that works on projects that will be constructed in multiple states (pipeline, electrical, or telecommunications) but the engineer is not licensed in any of the states.

D) Then how about when all of the above examples never have a PE sign and seal any documents?

 

[GregLocock]

I'm not quite sure what your point (D) is. If the engineering drawings have to be sealed, then they have to be sealed. So in A B and C a PE will have to check and seal the design, if the design has to be sealed.

If you are asking how an overseas (or out of state) engineer can prepare designs under the supervision of the responsible PE, why do you need physical contact to supervise someone?





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Slugger926]

The reason for the question is that I believe (from experience) that a lot of companies are getting by without using PE's when they should be.

 

[GregLocock]

What? They're presenting plans to the relevant authority without seals on them?

Doesn't sound very likely.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[LHA]

A) The person in TX is fine, he or she just needs an NY PE to review and seal the work. It does not matter where the NY PE is located at the time of applying the seal.

B) That person is fine, it does not matter where the AK PE is located at the time of applying the seal.

C) This one would need input from a lawyer, but I believe all the other states could voluntarily defer to one state and have a PE from that state seal all docs. Or a PE from each state would have to seal the portion in each state. But, it does not matter where the PE or PE's are located at the time of applying the seals.

D) If it is for a product which requires "Engineered Design", it could not happen legally; the final document could not be Recorded and/or bid upon by licensed, bonded contractors. If it is for a product which does not require "Engineered Design", it would be fine; the final document would not have to be Recorded and could be bid upon by licensed, bonded contractors.


Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[jheidt2543]

Just a couple of comments:

1. There are many industrial products that are designed to engineering standards by graduate, but unlicensed engineers. Engineers in industry do not have the long tradition of required licensing, as do engineers involved in building design. This is partly due to the fact that many industrial products do not go through the same government reveiw process and permit issuing that is required for buildings. National engineering orgainzations like NSPE have been working hard for many years to get this changed, with little success.

2. Building designs are submitted for review and permiting before construction. Most building codes require the designers stamp the plans before submitting them for review.

3. It is a common practice for buildings to be designed in one state for construction in some other state. However, they must be reviewed and sealed by a licensed professional in the state issuing the building permit.

 

[Slugger926]

GregLocock - Many times they are implementing the plans without the proper authority ever knowing, and could be creating hazards for the public. Profits are what counts for the CEO's, and it is better for them to demand quick turnaround and ask for forgiveness when the rare chance of these projects being questioned. So far I have seen the same attitude from two companies I have worked for in two different industries. I am probably one of the few that required a local PE and Authority approve the designs and work before construction began.

To make things even more complicated, Texas no longer requires PE's if they are working in the Telecommunications industry. So a guy with no real engineering background is now giving approval and determining floor loadings for equipment. This can be dangerous with some projects in multi-story buildings.

 

[JAE]

Well, if someone is designing "buildings" without a PE, you should call you board immediately, but again, per jheidt's comments above, I just don't see that happening all that often.

Usually, any building MUST have an occupancy permit. To get that, it has to be inspected during construction by the local authorities. For them to do this, it had to have a construction permit. To get the permit, it had to have a PE involved. This is true whether its a public or private structure.

Now with transmission poles, etc. I could see that this is an "industrial" thing that might not need any PE seal...but it should.

 

[BJC]

Slugger926
A project only needs a PE stamp if state law or the local building authority requires it. In states I am registered in Schools and Hospitals require PE stamps. The local building officials and owners may require a PE stamp in addition to what state law requires. If the state or local law doesn't require a stamp anyone can draw plans.
If the plans have a stamp and you think it phoney you can look it up on the net. Most state boards have the roster of PEs on the net.

Iha
" The person in TX is fine, he or she just needs an NY PE to review and seal the work."
I don't know specifically about New York but I do know about a dozen others. Stamping plans that were not completed under you "responsible charge" could get you in trouble. It is specifically forbiden in most states.

 

[GregLocock]

So slugger, either you start dobbing the offenders in, or hand in your badge. Otherwise YOU are in breach of your PE license (as I understand it).

Finished stirring, have we?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[TFL]

i know alot of states have problems stamping another's work, however in the northeast it is generally ok if you review it and are comfortable with it

from the new york law:

"Unprofessional conduct shall also include, in the professions of architecture and landscape architecture, engineering and land surveying:
..........
3. certifying by affixing the licensee's signature and seal to documents for which the professional services have not been performed by, or thoroughly reviewed by, the licensee; or failing to prepare and retain a written evaluation of the professional services represented by such documents in accordance with the following requirements:

1. a licensee who signs and seals documents not prepared by the licensee or by an employee under the licensee's direct supervision shall prepare, and retain for a period of not less than six years, a thorough written evaluation of the professional services represented by the documents, including but not limited to drawings, specifications, reports, design calculations and references to applicable codes and standards. Such written evaluation shall clearly identify the project and the documents to which it relates, the source of the documents and the name of the person or organization for which the written evaluation was conducted, and the date of the evaluation, and the seal and signature of the licensee shall also be affixed thereto"

 

[Slugger926]

When I talked to my board in private over a year ago about the issues, there were lots of grey areas that they probably didn't want to get involved with. Especially if they started inforcing some of the grey areas, some of the large corporations would possibly pull out of the state taking taxes and $$$ with them. At the same time TX just changed their laws to protect the offenders.

There are some tough issues when I am the only "engineer" left at work that knows anything about getting a License and what it means. Also, about 50% don't even have college degrees. Per OK law, the company can't legally call anyone an engineer unless they have a P.E. or the company obtains a Certificate of Authorization from the Board to be exempt.

A previous company I worked for 9 years ago before obtaining my license just titled their engineers as "Designers" to get around the loophole.

Greg - Why would I need to go out and check to see if everyone has a license at every company that has the title of Engineer? In OK and TX you can't legally be called an engineer without a PE or your comapany having a Certificate of Authorization. Shouldn't the boards just go to each company and ask for their list of engineers and compare that to the list of PE's unless the companies have Certificate of Authorizations? I believe TX did that very thing a couple of years ago, and the big Telecom Companies threw $$$ at the law makers to make the Telecom Industry exempt from having licensed engineers. TX was going to fine each company $3000 per day for each day an engineer without a license until the company changed the emplyees title to tech.

What companies can and can't do is confusing concerning licensing, or boards aren't enforcing their own regulations. I know they will enforce the regulations on individuals and companies listed as Engineering Consulting firms.

I am not really trying to stir up the pot, I just have had these questions on my mind for years without hardly any PE's to get different view points from.

 

[BobPE]

Slugger926:

As Greglocock said, we PE's have the badge. It is a tough position for us to be in, but we need to police ourselves because there really isn't anyone else that can.

If one is dispensing engineering services to the public, including engineering buildings, they need to be licensed here in the states. There are a few states that have exceptions, like CA where just about anyone can consult to industry, but this is the exception to the rules.

When I work on projects in a state that I do not have a license, I place the responsible control for the project into an engineers hands that is licensed in that state. Now, for a multi national firm, the chances are good that there are licensed engineers in the states where they are working, otherwise they do not perform work in those states. This is the reason why you see a slew of small, regional engineering firms and why multi nationals buy them up all the time.

As for engineering in those so called grey areas, that is engineering, and if it is not exempt, then it must be performed by licensed engineers. There really is no question, and when there is a question the boards are there to tell everyone what the answer is.


I agree that the laws are confusing, NSPE and others are woring on national licensure law models that will address many of these problem areas. These models will address exempt practice, because a lot of licensed engineers are concerned.

Bob

 

[EddyC]

I have observed the problem described by Slugger926. My current employer is a telecommunications subcontractor for one of the large multinational Engineer, Procurement, Construction (EPC) firms. The EPC firm does 60-70% of the engineering themselves (unlicensed staff) and go hire a local engineering firm to draft up the drawings, do the remaining 30-40% of the engineering and apply their PE stamp. This thereby makes everything look legit to the governmental authorities.

 

[LHA]

Eddy and BJC:
I don't understand what you mean by "makes everything look legit". This also gets to what BJC said earlier about "responsible charge".

I am licensed in PA. If you want to design something, I don't care who or where you are. You can hire me to review, edit and seal the plans, calcs, narratives, whatever. If I do so, it doesn't "look legit"; by law and by ethics and by my own moral values, it is legit, precisely because those engineering aspects of that project to which I am sealing are under my "responsible charge".

I can not currently sell you this service in any other state or country, and so I would not. But if I legally procure a license in another state, I would sell that service legally and ethically. Whether or not I ever set foot in that state - and where the people who work under my "responsible charge" are located - is not relevant.

There is nothing at all wrong with someone hiring a PE to oversee the design and that PE's seal affirms he or she has done so.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[EddyC]

lha,

I meant "looks legit" not "is legit". As you correctly pointed out, it is wrong to approve the work of individuals that were not under your supervision. It is also wrong for unlicensed engineers to perform work that is not under the supervision of a PE, in regardings to buildings & infrastructure. However, the authorities have no way of knowing what is going on unless someone reports it. I also want to clarify that I am not the one who is doing this semi-rubber stamping, it is my employer.

 

[jsummerfield]

It is common for US engineers to perform international work with no stamps required. It is also common for industrial work - not associated with public works - not to require a stamp.

A generalization follows for each of the examples:

A) A non-licensed engineer sitting in Texas doing projects that will be implemented in New York.

Where a PE stamp is required, the company in Texas assigns someone with a NY stamp to oversea the work and to stamp the documents as required. Many in Texas have a license in another state. Many departments in a large firm keep track of who is licensed and where.

B) An engineer not licensed in Arkansas doing work for a company in Arkansas while living in South Africa. The project will be constructed in Arkansas. In Texas, if the work must be supervised by a PE, the engineer doing the work must be where the supervising engineer is. Some companies have work done in India. The PE cannot just stamp the work if not done where the PE is.

Not all work needs to be stamped. Public projects need to be stamped. Civil and structural work is most likely stamped. Arkansas laws apply. I have not read the AR requirements.

C) A non licensed engineer that works on projects that will be constructed in multiple states (pipeline, electrical, or telecommunications) but the engineer is not licensed in any of the states.

Not all work needs to be stamped. Pipeline work likely requires a stamp by a PE in each applicable state.

D) Then how about when all of the above examples never have a PE sign and seal any documents?

Not all work needs to be stamped. In fact, I have not stamped anything in a very long time. However, just because it does not need to be stamped, often it is still engineering that should be prepared and checked by a PE.


John

 

[BJC]

Iha
Do a google search on "Plan Stamping" you find lots on the subject.
The fastest was to get in trouble in the states I registered in is stamp a set of plans you didn't have a hand in. There are often stories in the State Board bulletins about some engineer who charged a contractor $ 4 or 500 to stamp a set of plans the contractor made. Usually the engineer get his license suspended for while, he gets to pay a fine (civil penalty) and the contractor has to start all over and hire a new engneer.
You can stamp plans for contractors. Get in on the front end and oversee the project. You don't have to do much to be in responsible charge. You oversee the project to assure it meets your approval. There's a lot of leaway in most designs and letting others have their way is not necessarly bad design. Just be sure if the time ever came you could say "Yes your Honor, this was my design and I had control from the beginning".

 

[dozer]

Slugger926,

Here's what I found concerning Texas law:

§ 1001.061. Telephone Companies
(a) An operating telephone company, an affiliate of the company, or an employee of the company or affiliate is exempt from this chapter with respect to any plan, design, specification, or service that relates strictly to the science and art of telephony.

Notice it says "telephony". The way I read this you can't work the telephone company and design a building and say "Oh, I'm exempt, I don't need a P.E. license."

So when you say, "So a guy with no real engineering background is now giving approval and determining floor loadings for equipment." I don't think that was the intent of the law. I think if he's designing a widget to improve telephone switching then he doesn't have to have an engineering license, but if he's designing a building to hold that switching equipment he dam well better have a P.E. license.

However, I have no doubt that the CEO's you speak of, read that law and don't interpret it that way at all since that would be more costly to them (at least until the building falls down).

Bear in mind, I just read this and I'm applying common sense. Reality may be totally different.

 

[Slugger926]

Dozer,

There are a lot of grey areas where there is a seperate owner of the building that has a Building Engineer or contracted Engineering Firm that approves everything that goes on in their building with all of the telecom companies leasing space. The Engineer in charge of the building signs off on everything that goes on in most cases.

Then there are the cases no one (PE) is watching what goes on.

With Telephone companies, the engineers are giving instructions on how to install pre-engineered equipment from vendors. The engineering comes in with floor loading, HVAC, structural engineering to support cables, elctrical engineering to build out AC outlets, DC power plants, DC battery backup systems, and Generator backup systems, and DC power cabling. The electricians will usually follow AC power codes so that is usually safe. The installers know what is safe in regard to DC power install. The real engineering come into building the structures to hold the signal and power cable, along with staying within the floor loading limits of a given building. Things can be pretty messy at a site after decades of deglect to structural support.

There are just lots of grey areas in regard to engineering regulations, and the grey areas are different between industries.