Engineering w/o school 8

[sr20ser]

Here is the situation that I am in. I worked for the company I am at now about two years ago. I started at the bottom, material handler, and worked my way up to being a "Laser Technician". I was laid off, and called back about a year later. I am now the "Production Engineer" and do all the CAD work and all the programming for the lasers at our company. I have not had any schooling in this area, I went to a welding school.

What's the opinion on getting hired at another company for engineering. Is exerience worth anything without a degree?
-Tim

 

[MintJulep]

Depending on the laws in your state, and how the state board of engineers chooses to interpret and enforce them your company may be subjected to fines for have a non-licenced person (let alone a non-degreed one) in an "engineering" position.

You personnaly may be subject to fines if you represent yourself as an engineer on your resume.

 

[rbcoulter]

You can always try. In most cases the industrial exemption will apply and will be legal. Selling yourself to a different company as an engineer will be difficult with such little experience (less than two years).

"Show me a technician claiming to be doing an engineer's job, and I will show you a technician complaining he/she does an engineer's job on a technician's salary."

 

[sr20ser]

Anyone know about Illinois?

 

[Comcokid]

I have several friends who have worked at several companies as engineers but who either never started or completed a degreed course. It is their experience that allows then to perform the work. One of these friends has a whole string of patents, a few published papers, and even has chaired committees within his industry on setting standards - but only did three years of a 4 year degree.

One can have a technical career and can be employed at companies in a technical positions performing engineering work. However - using my firends experiences as an example - moving job-to-job without a degree is difficult, your capabilities are always somewhat suspect, and you may be paid lower.

Note also that in many states there are laws concerning the use of an engineering title outside the boundries of your employer. A person working for a company in many states can perform the work of an engineer for the company and have the title of an engineer but is exempt from these engineering regulations. I'll assume you post is not trying to address these wider issues of a licensed engineer and engineers who work in the Civil, Structural, etc disciplines whose designs can directly affect public safety.

 

[BobPE]

How about going to get your engineering degree? Although you say you are doing engineering, I suspect that to just be some title a company gave to you that has no value outside of the company. As MintJulip indicated, these titles can and usually do get people into a lot of trouble. You can't be an engineer without a minimum of a degree in engineering, but exempt companies can call you whatever they want. People may argue that, but every degreed engineer would most likely agree and that is afterall what it is all about.

I would not hold myself out as an engineer in Illinois without a PE, that is for sure, they are tough.

Bob

 

[TheTick]

Not to sound snobbish, but what your are doing doesn't really sound like engineering.

 

[jsummerfield]

It appears common for people who work overseas to be promoted from technician to superviser to commissioning or field engineer. Your situation sounds similar.

If changing companies, consider showing the promotional progression and indicate that the company title was engineer - in a clear manner without claiming to be an engineer. Perhaps you can be creative in a manner that permits indicating the promotional increases. Procede with caution. Read the board rules for an engineering license in your state.

John

 

[FalsePrecision]

Tick...
What is your definition of "engineering"? Could be a source of controversy. We engineers, for the most part, have no idea of how to work on a car engine, or to keep a railroad engine going. Maybe the English word "engineer" is a corruption of a French word which literally means "ingenious person", i.e. someone very creative.

 

[ewh]

sr20ser,
It is not unusual to get the title of engineer if you have skills that the company seeks. I have held several positions with the title of engineer because that was how the companies could justify hiring me at the rate I was seeking. I have never refered to myself as an engineer. I recently requested a demotion from engineer to designer to escape being salaried-exempt. Now I do the same job, get the same benefits, am guaranteed a set salary, and get paid time and a half for overtime.
In THIS type of situation, it's all semantics.

 

[TheTick]

I don't want to cut down sr20sre's experience, just put it in perspective.

What's the opinion on getting hired at another company for engineering. Is exerience worth anything without a degree?

This experience could get you a good job, perhaps even one titled "production engineer". Is it engineering? Not really.

Grits ain't grocery...
Eggs ain't poultry...
Drafting is not engineering
Scripting (i.e. "programming" CNC) is not programming
Programming is not engineering
Machining is not engineering
I have worked at all of the above, BTW.

We engineers, for the most part, have no idea of how to work on a car engine

What engineers are you working with? Most ME's I know do plenty of shadetree mechanicry. Maybe I'm getting spoiled by the abundance of talented individuals around me, but my engineering world doesn't sound like yours.

What is an engineer?
<

http://civil.engr.siu.edu/intro/definitions.htm>

Yes, I would have written something similar on my own, but then I would have to support it with documentation (another engineering function).

...I suspect that to just be some title a company gave to you that has no value outside of the company

I'm with BobPE on this one. Be careful you don't overvalue your market value based on one customer, your current employer.

 

[EddyC]

I've met 2 people over the years who are engineers by experience. Both had the ability to come up with lots of interesting solutions to complicated problems. Both had many (10+) years of experience and seemed naturally gifted. Both had their own businesses. One worked under the industrial exemption while the other did not and had to rely on a PE to review, modify & stamp his work. Both of these folks would be a natural asset to any company.

 

[FalsePrecision]

Tick...
I think you miss the whole point of sr20e's first post.
You certainly missed the point I made. I have a great sense of humor, and I don't feel threatened by sr20e's assertion that he can do engineering-type tasks.
Your reasoning sounds a lot like a put-down.

 

[FalsePrecision]

Oh and by the way...I can do shade-tree mechanics also. But cetainly don't describe myself as an engine expert.

 

[TheTick]

Tick...
I think you miss the whole point of sr20e's first post.

Gee whiz, after I even took the time to requote his question and answer it directly in the first paragraph of my post!

I don't think anyone is doing this person a favor by overstating the value of his experience. Lots of people can do some engineering tasks. I can do some first aid, but I am not a doctor.

Nothing wrong with being a great technician. Probably the most undervalued position in any enterprise. Someone needs to "make it happen". One reason I have been successful as an engineer is that the technicians I work with know without a doubt that I have respect for what they do.

I prefer to leave my "School of Hard Knocks" diploma and soapbox in the corner collecting dust. Suffice it to say that I do know what it is like to work up to engineering from the shop floor.

 

[FalsePrecision]

I still disagree with Tick and also Slugger926 - let me politely point out why:

Suppose a person got a job working in the lab of an eyeglass retailer, such as L***crafters. If that person was titled as "Production Engineer", or "Lens Engineer", it would be perfectly legal and ethical as long as he (she) was not presented to the customer who is buying the eyeglasses as an engineer. Chances are, there would be no contact with the customer anyway. Finally, I would not see this as a "trick" by management to avoid the extra cost of hiring a degreed Optical Engineer.
And this whole scenario would certainly not be an issue with the State Board of licensing for Engineers.

 

[Slugger926]

My experience is that especially with private companies that if you are doing what they want and you don't have a degree, they have you. You can't move on to another job so easy that pays the same, but at the same time you are cheaper than an engineer. They don't have to give you raises, and they can probably train someone to replace you fairly fast. The title is to keep you happy with a lower pay.

Check and see if your company has tuition re-imbursement and use that to get a B.S. degree at the minnimum. (Where is spell check on here?)

Good luck and document all of your experience, it will help you when you do get that degree and move on. You would be surprised how much warehouse experience, and manufacturing experience has helped me in my job. I understand what my own warehouse and vendors have to go through to meet my needs.

 

[FalsePrecision]

OK, Tick, what you are saying:
1) The job title will be called "Production Engineering"
2) Supposedly, its a "good job"
3) However, it isn't really engineering

No wonder I am so confussed!

 

[rhodie]

This topic has been discussed in great detail in other threads.

Anyone lacking a PE cannot advertise themselves as an "Engineer".

Companies define "engineering work" in broad strokes, if only to attract a certain type of laborer.

Depending upon skillset, a non-degreed technician can often do the same type tasks as an "Engineer" would, but lacks the legal and ethical credentials to stand alone on his own work.

However, "engineering" has existed long before diplomas and certifications muddled the whole mess up.

The Wright Brothers were bicycle mechanics for goodness sake, and now a whole discipline of "Engineering" revolves around the stuff they "blindly" dabbled in.

A PE friend once explained it to me like this: "Technicians and machinists and mechanics make the world go around, but the Engineers make sure that no one is gonna get hurt along the way."

No disrespect to sr20ser intended. The Tick is correct.

 

[Slugger926]

My experience is that especially with private companies that if you are doing what they want and you don't have a degree, they have you. You can't move on to another job so easy that pays the same, but at the same time you are cheaper than an engineer. They don't have to give you raises, and they can probably train someone to replace you fairly fast. The title is to keep you happy with a lower pay.

Check and see if your company has tuition re-imbursement and use that to get a B.S. degree at the minnimum. (Where is spell check on here?)

Good luck and document all of your experience, it will help you when you do get that degree and move on. You would be surprised how much warehouse experience, and manufacturing experience has helped me in my job. I understand what my own warehouse and vendors have to go through to meet my needs.