Engineers and CAD 7

[Hurricanes]

I am curious about engineers general relationships with CAD across various industries.

Personally, I have been involved in the energy, industrial and mining sectors. In all cases I had not touched CAD. It is seen as a waste of resources for an engineer to use CAD when you can get a drafter/designer to do it at a much lower cost.

The closest I have gotten to it is when I get a drafter to export a model over for me to do an analysis on it.

It sort of surprised me to see on this site guys with sigs that have something like Professional/Design Engineer and then the version of the CAD package they are using. I realise that in some industries such as manufacturing it is advantagous to have engineers using CAD, but to what extent?

There have been threads here about engineers worried about becoming 'CAD jockeys', or drafters bascially. I guess this is just so far removed from my experiences I was just after other peoples experiences and thoughts with regards to engineers and CAD.

Ok, I know similar threads to this one have been discussed, but they all seemed to be closed when I searched for them.

 

[rowingengineer]

I know enough about cad to be able to drive it. but i don't in general draft my projects, this would be handled by a draftsmen.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[apsix]

I know enough about cad to be able to print off a drawing.

I would challenge the much lower cost drafter claim, until recently my senior structural tracer (AKA 'drafter') was earning more than me.

 

[Hurricanes]

apsix,

I guess I should qualify my statement. In my current company I earn approximately 2 to 3 times that of a drafter with the same level of experience.

I have no doubt the senior drafters earn more than me.

 

[rowingengineer]

apsix love the quote

senior structural tracer (AKA 'drafter')

To true, to often.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[GregLocock]

I have had a job where I spent a fair amount of time developing the product in cad, as a solid model. This was checked by me for functionality and strength, and then I threw it over the wall to my CAD guys so we could get parts made.

But that was a product where volume and strength were of paramount importance, so a solid model was of direct relevance.





Cheers

Greg Locock

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[ivymike]

I've had a job where I was the low-paid engineer doing CAD in a herd of better-paid contract designers. Did a few kilohours of that. Then I had a job where I was the low-paid engineer doing analysis and simulation, and occasionally getting to take a CAD vacation in a herd of better-paid engineers doing CAD. Turns out it's sometimes faster to have the same guy model and analyze a bracket... Then I got a job where a contract guy did all the CAD, and all I had to do was sip my pepsi and poke at the screen. Then I got a job where I had to lead a team of people who poked at screens, and I only occasionally had a chance to poke at them myself. Then I got a job leading a group of people who led people who poked at acreens... and then I moved to an office where almost nobody has used CAD, except perhaps in college. Then I bought myself a "home use" copy of pro-e and started modeling bits and pieces for hobby-related projects, so that I could have a local machine shop fab 'em up. F'ing hell is it hard to do a proper detail drawing all by yourself with no standards, templates, checkers, etc. Certainly harder than doing it at work was, or how I remember it was.

 

[TheTick]

I am a mechanical engineer and (all modesty aside) a CAD power-user. For product design, this works well. Being adept at CAD makes it possible for me to express ideas that I could not otherwise.

CAD is my palette. I can thrash ideas around, unconstrained by any limitations of how to actually model what I want. I am also free from trolls who want to tell me somethng will take three times longer than it should because I "don't understand how tricky it is".

Honesty may be the best policy, but insanity is a better defense.

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[KirbyWan]

I think alot of the difference is scale. If you are designing a plant or a complex piece of machinery it makes sense to have CAD jockeys do the grunt work for the engineers. In my job we are a small outfit and I do all my own CAD work, but I am generally not designing anything complex. I enjoy doing the CAD work (well I wouldn't mind someone taking my models and creating drawings) and hope to continue doing my own CAD work.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

I work in the building design industry and we are heading toward the 3d models i.e. Revit.

The days of a senior engineer making mark ups and handing them to a cad jockey are over.

With the 3d Revit models, the person on the computer has to be a "pipe installer" instead of a "line drawer". He has to have an understanding of pipe sizes, elevations, slopes, systems, etc. He has to understand pipe materials and fitting types. So he has to have more understanding. He needs to be a designer instead of a drafter.

And the engineers, unless they are fairly senior, need to have a limited capacity to do this as well - except they have to understand how to use the software.

The issue is where is the middle ground. How experienced a drafter do you need to be able to do the input. And how "senior" of the engineer is it too costly for them to be in the software.

I am a not a senior engineer, maybe an upper junior.

I generally stay out of the 2d software when they are applicable on the job.

I do the engineering (equipment sizing, coordination with other disciplines, general routing philosophy, etc.). I have a designer who knows how to route piping, knows the pipe fittings that are appropriate and generalyy does the work in the software.

I am totally capable of, and actually prefer, working in the 3d software if required.

 

[DesignerGuy16]

Some of us do both, and enjoy it. Mind you I'm working on industrial machinery and not buildings where every bit of structure needs calculations to justify size & location.

I'll only do FEA and calculations on critical structures. It gives me a feeling of accomplishment to see my original sketches and concepts unfold before my eyes in 3D and the real world. That's why I do what I do.

I tell people I do what I do because of three things: my dad, MacGyver, and Legos. I'd honestly be bored out of my wits if all I did were calculations and didn't have the chance to get my hands dirty actually designing things, or hands-on problem solving.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

 

[lz5pl]

After so many postings here about "CAD jockeys" I am curious how is the situation with electrical designers in your companies.
I am electrical designer, our speciality are control and protection systems in electric substations. Several years ago when we started with specialized CAD product (ELCAD from Aucotec) I was in difficult position to decide what to do with a lady who was the only drafter in my department. There was no work for her anymore except of punching printouts and putting them in files for sending to the client. In the same time my engineers were overloaded with work. In our business design is done directly on the computer screen. No more paper and pencil drafts to be handed to the draftsmen.
The same is with colleagues from next department who are doing primary connection design - switchyard layouts, sections, etc. Only very rare we have something roughly scetched on paper, but actual design is made directly on the PC.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[MechEng2005]

I work for an OEM, and the differences between drafters and engineers is if they have a degree and hourly/salaried. The job description is basically the same. The engineers are typically given the project manager position, but if we are busy the "drafters" may lead some small projects as well. Typically, the "project manager" on drafter-led projects assume the role mostly as a customer contact. The drafters have taken on more complex projects when we were busy though.

In theory, the drafters do the drafting and the engineers do the checking. In practice, it all depends on who is available. If an engineer is waiting on information from a customer/vendor and has some time, they may do their own drafting and have a "drafter" check it.

I do find it amusing that estimates for projects bill drafting and engineering at different rates, and often it is the same person (getting paid the same) that is doing the work.

The rate for a drafter is about 80% of engineering.

-- MechEng2005

 

[djs]

I think a lot of the split between drafters and engineers has alot to do with where the engineering occurs. It appears that for the mechanical side, a piece is "designed" by a drafter, and then later analized by the engineer. In the case of electrical equipment, the engineering is done during the CAD process, and there is little or n followup engineering.

 

[KENAT]

Hang on, there's all kinds of terms being thrown around here willy nilly. I've seen or heard of quite a few related terms and seen varying definitions of some of them.

Tracer - traced over the pencil on paper drawings in ink on permanent media. This was history by the time I got into engineering though we had one old tracer as the receptionist.

Draftsman/Drafter - person who created fully dimensioned/detailed standard compliant drawings from someone elses sketches. Often limited or no real engineering education though sometimes with an appropropriate associates or apprenticeship or HNC/HND. Heck, some of the famous A/C designers etc of the first half of last century started out as Draftsmen. Seems to mostly apply to 2D work though some use the title for 3D folk.

Designer - Can mean anything from the same as Draftsman to virtually same as an engineer. May also mean an Industrial or similar Designer. Often used as the 3D equivalent of Draftsman. I tend to think of it as someone with engineering education but probably not bachelors or equivalent though I have no real basis for this.

Engineer - Not going there. I'll let you use your own definitions though it's safe to say some of you will exclude folks that I'm fine with being called an engineer.

PE - as defined by the relevant state board or equivalent.

Checker - typically not a degreed engineer but very experienced Draftsman/Designer that knows drawing standards, tolerancing and has at least a basic grounding in the relevant engineering 'function' area.

CAD Jockies/Monkey's - know all the buttons of the relevant CAD software but don't have an ounce of engineering sense, or know anything about drawing standards/conventions or tolerancing or anything useful.

At some point when CAD first came out a lot of managers decided they didn't need draftsmen or checkers or the like any more and eliminated the positions, engineers could create their own drawings and CAD eliminated mistakes (no?). Not everywhere did this, but a good few places. Others started to expect more 'design' out of the former Drafters - nice hand writing and a sharp pencil but no engineering capability weren't enough any more.

Then as the software became the end not the means the CAD Monkey was created, and low there was much sorrow in the land of engineering(sorry, I got all AV there for a minute).

Anyway, I have my bachelors and have had Engineer in all my official titles. I don't have PE or equivalent. I'll let you decide if I'm an engineer. I do most of my own CAD work. From conceptual 3D modelling down to detailed 2D prints that comply to relevant industry standards and are fully toleranced etc.

I've done stuff for others before, and had others do it for me.

I found doing my own the least frustrating and the fastest in terms of calendar. Now whether it's most efficient in terms of hourly pay V time spent I'm not sure. Also, how much of the difficulty I had delegating it was due to my poor communication skills or their poor communication/drafting/engineering skills etc. I'll let others decide.

I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, I struggled with some of the more advanced math etc. by my degree and found the more analytical stuff hard. However, I did OK understanding basic concepts (had to explain to someone with far better grades than I fundamentally why a wing generates lift - he now works for Airbus just so you know ;-)) and when it came to the 'design' projects etc. excelled. My work is generally at a significantly higher level than the last few designers/drafters I've worked with, though I sometimes get lost in more technical discussions with Engineer colleagues.

So for me, doing CAD work but with an engineering intent/viewpoint works out OK. If I'd been better at the analysis maybe I'd be making more money as a real engineer, who knows.

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[rowingengineer]

Kenat
expectations will vary depending on experience and industry.

I would think this is correct for the mechanical industry:
"Draftsman/Drafter - person who created fully dimensioned/detailed standard compliant drawings from someone elses sketches. Often limited or no real engineering education though sometimes with an appropriate associates or apprenticeship or HNC/HND. Heck, some of the famous A/C designers etc of the first half of last century started out as Draftsmen."

structural, I would expect the draftsmen to know and understand the relevant standard for drafting (I only know of three out of the twenty that i have worked with that do).

I expect them to know and understand detailing requirements for steel and concrete (ie gages of bolts, laps of steel, 10/20.

I would expect the draftsmen from my sketches to be able to expand a beam elevation to a section (numbers aren’t good again, 4/20.

I might have high expectations ect, but most of these guys get paid a level near mine and get called designers (even thou they have no idea what a designer is), so I expect them to understand a lot. Just last week I had to explain what cover was to a guy that is apparently very experienced in concrete drafting.


Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[KENAT]

rowing, I tried to cover the range I've seen. I'd like them to know the standards, have a basic engineering knowledge etc. but that isn't always the reality - as you point out with 3/20;-)

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[Hurricanes]

Personally, I learnt the basics of Solid Works at uni, and used it in all my design projects. I thought I was pretty good at it (in the scheme of things I probably wasn’t). But it doesn’t seem to be the preferred package in my industry; Autocad, Microstation and AutoPlant seem to dominate. I wouldn’t have a clue how to drive those things.

I must admit at crunch time on projects I can get a bit panicked with drafters getting stuff done on time, especially when I have red penned stuff three times and the same mistake keeps coming back to me (which only really happens with junior drafters though).

Just as a side; Drafter vs. Draughter. Which countries refer to them as draughters? NZ does, I would assume the UK does as well?

KENAT,

I am not so sure about your definitions. The drafters I have know have all been required to hold a 2 year diploma in engineering technology. Basically they learn the basic engineering principles in their specific area.

Designers can be drafters with some extra experience/education under their belts, but not necessarily. I know of one company that calls all their drafters designers as it gets them out of having to pay them 1.5 times for overtime…

As for ‘CAD Jockeys’, I guess we shouldn’t have any as our drafters have an education, but sometimes I do wonder…

PEDARRIN2,

All of the stuff you listed I would expect a drafter to know. As I said above here drafters have a 2 year diploma and the line between drafter and designer is not clear.

I would expect the engineers to create the P&Ids, calculate pressure drops, size the pipe, do the stress analysis etc, but would fully expect the drafter to route the pipe and include items such as drains in the appropriate locations.

 

[KENAT]

That was part of the point of my post. There are a number of terms used for 'the people that perform tasks to create product definition data' but their definitions vary widely.

In the UK most of the folks I worked with had done an apprenticeship with hnc/hnd. Some I would say fell on the designer side, some were fully fledged engineers degree or not and some failed to meet the lowest requirements for Draughter or even CAD monkey.

On those 2 year courses, I have the concern that the drafting aspects may be more "how to use CAD package X" rather then "How to create product documentation, using CAD package X for example".

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[rowingengineer]

"The drafters I have know have all been required to hold a 2 year diploma in engineering technology" This should be a basic requirement, would help a little, but alas not the case in my city.

However on the flip side, the few guys whom I consider to be worth their weight in gold on a project are unqualified draftees (aka 4hrs for an A1), developed their skill at work and never got formally qualified. However management/engineers made these guys work the board for the first few months of there employment, where you learnt pen setting, standards or you spent to much time reworking, unlike cad were you can just with a click of the mouse fix any little problems.

They also made the junior engineers work the board for the first two months of their employment those day, but that is another story.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it