Engineers on time clock 2

[EngJW]

Our company has decided that engineers are now hourly employees and must punch a time clock. We are also subject to factory attendance rules- you can get docked for doctor and dentist appointments, you get reprimmanded if coming back from lunch a minute late, and so on.

They claim it is due to new federal laws on overtime. I searched for information about "exempt" positions and I don't think this is right, but I could not find anything about converting exempt to hourly.

A few managers are excluded. There are also some engineers putting in overtime. I don't know if they will now get paid for it.

I have no options other than to live with it. The company doesn't care if anyone quits over it. I just need to stick it out about 5 more years (if the company lasts that long), but this is very demoralizing and I feel my attitude going bad.

Your comments would really be appreciated.

 

[ctopher]

Sounds like you are in California!
IMO, It's a new trend for non-eng experienced managers to get their people to work harder, and somehow save $$. I have seen it in 2 companies when upper management has a "shake up" and sales have gone down. Are you aerospace or oil industry?

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP2.0 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

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[Roadbridge]

Will they pay you over time?

 

[ewh]

It sounds like they made the engineers either hourly or non-exempt salaried. They should now be paid overtime if they are no longer exempt. Timeclocks and getting docked for time not at work go along with this.
If they are now non-exempt salaried, they still have to be paid for a full week regardless of time missed (as long as they worked the first day of the week.
I'm not sure how legal it is to change their classification without their permission. I recently requested a change from exempt to non-exempt (due to the overtime issue) and had to sign an acceptance of my "new" position, which was basically the original job offer re-written.
I suggest you google "hourly" and "non-exempt" also.

 

[ctopher]

ewh is right, I don't think it is legal to change your status without permission. But, it may also depend which state you are in ... not sure.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP2.0 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site

FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

 

[Beggar]

I'm not a lawyer either but I have been involved in employee classifications. It's not up to the employee to classify themselves. Basically, everybody falls under the hourly/OT rules unless you're part of one of the "exempt" groups in which case you're not entitled to breaks, OT, etc.

The "exempt" label is generally applied to professional folks who have specialized skills. However, the company is not *required* to have people be "exempt" employees.

The odd thing about this is that most people get very upset when they're changed from non-exempt to exempt (recall Bush's changes a couple years back that made it much easier to strip "non-exempt" status).

I, for one, would far rather be non-exempt.

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[EddyC]

I'm an exempt employee and am not on a time clock but am on a time sheet (which to me isn't that much different than a time clock). At least I get paid overtime at a straight rate, which is better than nothing at all.

 

[DonPE]

The new federal rules were to make more people non-exempt from overtime, not the other way around. If you are exempt, then you must get overtime pay, no other way around it. This is federally mandated, and you state may have tougher laws to boot. There may also be holiday pay. You should not have lost any accrued vacation pay when the company changed your status. My guess is that the company would love to reclassify you even further as a "consultant", so that they would not have to pay overtime, or any other kind of benefits. But luckily for now, the IRS is pretty tough on the consultant category. Good luck.

 

[EngJW]

I would be very surprised to see any engineers here get paid for overtime. A couple are doing 10 hour days but no one is telling them to. Perhaps overtime has to be scheduled in order to get paid for it. Otherwise people could slack off all day and then work overtime.

I am not sure how to find out if you are officially classified as exempt on non-exempt. I just assumed it, and my job matches the FSLA description for exempt professionals. I tried to discuss it with the boss but all he could do was repeat the company policy. I don't dare ask HR as this is a right to work state and you can get fired for no reason at all.

I could understand time sheets in order to keep track of who is at work or how much time to charge to certain projects. It is the rules that are disturbing. I almost never take time off, but always felt that I could run out for a couple of hours and take care of a problem if necessary and not lose pay or get called on the carpet.

 

[ewh]

DonPE,
I think you've got that backwards. If you are exempt, you are EXEMPT from the Fair Labor Standards Act overtime rules. You work on a base salary and are paid an entire weeks wages, no more or less, regardless of how many hours you work (as long as you worked some hours that week). If you doubt this, check out

http://www.flsa.com/coverage.html.

Many busineses do allow for comp time or straight time for overtime, but are not required to do so.
If you are non-exempt, you must be paid overtime. This is where the time clock comes in, because they want to know just how much overtime to pay you. This is different from a timesheet, which is more for accounting purposes to determine what to bill your time to.

 

[SWComposites]

EngJW-

I for one would not put up with rigid time clock nonsense. Engineers in general apply creativity, critical thinking, etc. , etc. - this cannot be done on a rigid time schedule, and engineers should not be treated like factory robots. What would your company say/do if every engineer told them to shove it and quit?? Talk to your co-workers and convince all of them to a) refuse to punch the time clock and b) if that doesn't get management to change their policy then all resign enmasse. Its long past time that engineers start demanding to be treated like professionals, rather than factory assembly line workers. On the other hand if engineers don't demand professional treatment and put up with being treated like factory workers, then they should form a union to try to protect their interests.

 

[ARenko]

Why do you have to stick it out five more years, especially if you're worried about the company lasting that long? Retirement?

 

[EddyC]

EngJW,

Its time to start looking for another (hopefully better) job. I tell people that working is like getting slowly poisoned by arsenic. When you start a new job, you don't feel the poison until it builds up in your system years later. Then when you change jobs, you get purged of the built up arsenic and start the poisoning process all over again.

 

[haggis]

I’ve been self employed/contract most of my career and have worked at a large corporation on this basis for 28 years. Of course things in the corporate world have changed in a lot of ways but I still enjoy working here and intend to stay as long as I can.

I don’t like the idea of retirement and not having my work, in fact one guy who worked the same way was here until he was 73. Things have changed but at this stage of the game, at 59 coming on 60, who else would want me as most companies don’t look at retirement the way they do here. If you can still perform, they keep you.

The other thing is of course that the corporate changes came from on high, not the location I’m at so I can’t fault the upper management here. Until last year, being paid by the hour, we got time and a half over 40 hours, time and a half Saturdays and double time on Sundays and holidays. With all the recent belt tightening, now we get straight time for the hours we work but as I say, I’m still happy here.

My immediate supervisors are good people, give me a free reign to do my work with no interference and think highly of me.

If this had happened a few years ago, I must admit that I would have left on principle and gone somewhere else even if the overtime pay situation wasn’t as liberal.

 

[EngJW]

EddyC- how true. The best day on a job is the first day. It goes downhill from there.

Djv- I should have mentioned, but it is my age. If I were 40 or less I would be out of here.

Haggis- same here. I like the work, the people are great to work with, the product is interesting. My wife has a job that pays the health insurance. My house is close to paid for. Pay raises have not been coming but I am getting by and the cost of living here is not too bad. I know that you can wipe out a lot of savings by moving.

I like what SWC says. After I get over being mad, I might look for ways to beat the system.

 

[EddyC]

EngJW,

I don't agree with what SWComp proposes. Unless you can reap a windfall from such actions or have nothing to lose, it would be a big gamble and I feel a bad idea. Such confrontational actions against an employer can lead to disaster. Who would want to employ someone who attempted labor organizing at a previous job? Whether we like it or not, employee-employer relations are heading backwards to an earlier time in history. If you think that we engineers have it bad, I suggest that you look at the folks just entering the "profession" of medicine. They are treated far worse than us engineers and no longer are guaranteed to earn large salaries. Their hourly rate is now probably no better than ours.

 

[ajack1]

EngJW is it really that much of a problem?

I have to clock in but am paid a salary I have to book my own overtime, which I never do unless it involves travelling into work just for overtime. For every couple of minutes I am late back from lunch I work hours by starting early and finishing late. I would be far better off getting paid by the hours I “clock in”.

Sure you can try and beat the system, arrive a few minutes early and read the paper until start time, finish bang on time even if you are half way through something, that type of thing. But will that not just leave you feeling more angry and cause resentment from those around you?

You have said you have a job you enjoy, your house is nearly paid for, you have a wife that works, so I assume you are both in good health, is it really worth getting upset about?

How much worse has your life really become by having to clock in?

 

[EngJW]

No, it isn't worth getting upset over. Human nature I guess. We don't like change. After a week or so it will probably be forgotten, and I pretty much work steady hours and no overtime so it could be much worse somewhere else.

 

[vonbad]

This happened to me several years ago at a company. It caused much frustration with the engineers. Many of whom put in extra time. Typcial day was 7 to 530-6. When the clock was put in for us we could only clock in 15 minutes before in the morning and 15 minutes late in the evening. Otherwise a manager would have to override and manually clock us in or out.

The end result was that we engineers started to run by the clock as that was the way the company wanted it. However, it in the long run the company soon found out that they were actually better off without the clock. They ended up having to pay overtime. They then tried to get around this by pulling the time clock out, but we were liking our 'shorter' days and being paid over time.

 

[Beggar]

They then tried to get around this by pulling the time clock out, but we were liking our 'shorter' days and being paid over time

Precisely my point: The time clock is a good thing...

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Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

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